[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not sure I agree, considering the popularity of UKIP right now. I think the further right they go, the more some people will like it. And it is, sadly, those people who are likely to get off their backsides and vote.

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.

I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.

Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on.

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on.

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.

We are in agreement, Farage is a complete bluffer. He'll be found out when he has to explain his non existent economic policies. I cant wait to hear his foreign policies too. I agree that he knows what to say to the Tory core but I hope they realise he doesn't have a clue.