[Lex]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by boomoo

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

..he doesn't have to 'live through it again' but it is an opportunity for him to talk about it because he did come across as extremely arrogant in Wife Swap after the incident and lots of people including myself found it difficult to understand how someone of his age and supposed intelligence couldn't not realise why what he said was so offensive and yet at that time he seemed to have no regret at all..in the context of what he said it was a lot more than 'inappropriate'..that word had always been used in a 'superior' way, dating back to slavery...anyway as said before, I think he was angry and frustrated when he said it and it didn't denote any racism in him..

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

A really strong and good post Lex. Fascinating read and I agree with you. Good one.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

I actually agree with quite a lot of this. Early in the thread I said i considered him a racist based on his use of racist language. I''m not so sure now that I would. A lot of people have put forward good reason for thinking otherwise.

Most of my arguments on this thread are about what people consider to be possible or not possible: that someone did X means he can't be a racist - I disagree with this; or the age factor: I don't agree with a lot of what was said about this being a generational thing - I don't think that word would be considered acceptable by many people his age. language shifts, but that particular word has been considered pretty dodgy for quite a long time; and the fact that it was an 'off the cuff' remark: I think the language we use when we aren't thinking about what we're saying shows the kind of language we are comfortable with and accustomed to. When people say they didn't think the microphone was on, that tells me it is a word they wouldn't use in public, not that it is a word they wouldn't use.

I am willing to accept that having that word in your lexicon, and being part of a culture (football) in which racist terminology is commonplace doesn't make someone a 'racist'.