[Lewarse]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

I think Ron Atikinson knows the N word is unacceptable too, the guy used it in an off the cuff remark without thinking. It doesn't make it right but as others have already said, we all say s**t we don't necessarily mean and live to regret it.

Do you think your Dad didn't ever utter that word or any other racial remarks in his last 20 years of his life? Even though he knew it was unacceptable? Doesn't necessarily mean he hates black people, it was prevalent in that generation. As easy as you make it sound, one of the hardest things to do in life is change.

[DanaC]

On the contrary my dad said some horrible things about Pakistanis and Arabs. But then he was quite prejudiced against them (though he spftened on that score in later life). My point really was that even he knew not to use the N word.

As I said before, I don't think he should be defined by that moment. Totally unfair to define him by words spoken unthinkingly when his actions as a football manager were the polar opposite of those words.

All I am saying is that it is possible to hold racist and non racist views at the same time. And whilst I have many times said things I regret, I also consider that things said without thought reflect the language and concepts we are comfortable with.

I mentioned my dad because people keep bringing up his generation. I just don't think he is somehow representative of his generation. I think it says more about what language is (until very recently and probably still in a lot of areas)accepted in the footballing world than it does about his generation.


[eta] I have slightly shifted my opinion of him though, through this thread. I think more weight should be given to his actions during a time when acting in a non-racist way was something that required someone to take a very definite stand. I still don't think that automatically means he isn't or has never been racist. Doesn't mean he deserved to be pilloried in the way that he was mind you.

[williamwaggadagger]

ron went and made tv documentaries on this he travelled the world from Europe to Australia and America to meet different cultures and communities....ron has of course travelled the world umpteen times already
ive heard people use discriminatory words against the disabled against different cultures and ethnicities and religions and I do not believe 1 word undoes 74 years of great work. you must look at the body of work and the life as a whole and all the positive contributions made
anyway he toured the world , met endless people , witnessed various forms of racism, discrimination, he also met cultural and religious leaders
at one point after rapologising for the umpteenth time, he met the controversial hypocrite darius howe. ron said he was sorry and explained some of the good he had done in his life and how he wanted to try and understand what hed done wrong. darius proceeded to morally lecture him for ages. ron at the end said so is there no way I can ever earn forgiveness or redemption no matter what I do. No Mr Atkinson said darius howe, I am not a Christian

unbelievable

big ron has never stoked up anything, hes a football man, fantastic entertainment as a pundit, harmless and fun loving. in the end 74 years of actions is infinitely more important than 1 word

judge not too harshly or you will be judged the same way

[williamwaggadagger]

Originally Posted by DanaC

On the contrary my dad said some horrible things about Pakistanis and Arabs. But then he was quite prejudiced against them (though he spftened on that score in later life). My point really was that even he knew not to use the N word.

As I said before, I don't think he should be defined by that moment. Totally unfair to define him by words spoken unthinkingly when his actions as a football manager were the polar opposite of those words.

All I am saying is that it is possible to hold racist and non racist views at the same time. And whilst I have many times said things I regret, I also consider that things said without thought reflect the language and concepts we are comfortable with.

I mentioned my dad because people keep bringing up his generation. I just don't think he is somehow representative of his generation. I think it says more about what language is (until very recently and probably still in a lot of areas)accepted in the footballing world than it does about his generation.


[eta] I have slightly shifted my opinion of him though, through this thread. I think more weight should be given to his actions during a time when acting in a non-racist way was something that required someone to take a very definite stand. I still don't think that automatically means he isn't or has never been racist. Doesn't mean he deserved to be pilloried in the way that he was mind you.

This moral relativity is a joke

Our forefathers were forced by the aristocracy to sail across the globe fighting the Asians, the Africans and beyond. To build a bigger empire for the rich. Divide and conquer across the world was the mission statement for over 100 years. So wonder why their inter racial experiences were not too cordial? millions of young men butchered in battle, do you really think their main priority was which adjectives they used. As with most things, this evil was driven by the elite.

[Videostar]

Originally Posted by williamwaggadagger

ron went and made tv documentaries on this he travelled the world from Europe to Australia and America to meet different cultures and communities....ron has of course travelled the world umpteen times already
ive heard people use discriminatory words against the disabled against different cultures and ethnicities and religions and I do not believe 1 word undoes 74 years of great work. you must look at the body of work and the life as a whole and all the positive contributions made
anyway he toured the world , met endless people , witnessed various forms of racism, discrimination, he also met cultural and religious leaders
at one point after rapologising for the umpteenth time, he met the controversial hypocrite darius howe. ron said he was sorry and explained some of the good he had done in his life and how he wanted to try and understand what hed done wrong. darius proceeded to morally lecture him for ages. ron at the end said so is there no way I can ever earn forgiveness or redemption no matter what I do. No Mr Atkinson said darius howe, I am not a Christian

unbelievable

big ron has never stoked up anything, hes a football man, fantastic entertainment as a pundit, harmless and fun loving. in the end 74 years of actions is infinitely more important than 1 word

judge not too harshly or you will be judged the same way

Totally agree.

Ron has done so much to promote and help black players be accepted in the English game, after he was sacked from ITV and all the racism stuff blew up several black players that he managed all said as one that Ron is in no way a racist...those guys knows him much better than any of us...so their word is good enough for me.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by williamwaggadagger

This moral relativity is a joke

Our forefathers were forced by the aristocracy to sail across the globe fighting the Asians, the Africans and beyond. To build a bigger empire for the rich. Divide and conquer across the world was the mission statement for over 100 years. So wonder why their inter racial experiences were not too cordial? millions of young men butchered in battle, do you really think their main priority was which adjectives they used. As with most things, this evil was driven by the elite.

Wtf has any of that got to do with Ron using the word n/igger in the 21st century?

And what moral relativism was there in my post?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

A really strong and good post Lex. Fascinating read and I agree with you. Good one.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Lex

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.

I actually agree with quite a lot of this. Early in the thread I said i considered him a racist based on his use of racist language. I''m not so sure now that I would. A lot of people have put forward good reason for thinking otherwise.

Most of my arguments on this thread are about what people consider to be possible or not possible: that someone did X means he can't be a racist - I disagree with this; or the age factor: I don't agree with a lot of what was said about this being a generational thing - I don't think that word would be considered acceptable by many people his age. language shifts, but that particular word has been considered pretty dodgy for quite a long time; and the fact that it was an 'off the cuff' remark: I think the language we use when we aren't thinking about what we're saying shows the kind of language we are comfortable with and accustomed to. When people say they didn't think the microphone was on, that tells me it is a word they wouldn't use in public, not that it is a word they wouldn't use.

I am willing to accept that having that word in your lexicon, and being part of a culture (football) in which racist terminology is commonplace doesn't make someone a 'racist'.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by Shaun

he's everything that's crap about English men.

Obsessed with football to the point of it being a religion, wary of anything that isn't English and white, and a gobshite.

That is absolutely not true. Perhaps if you were interested in football you would be able to find out that Ron Atkinson was the first manager responsible for the introduction of black ( hate having to use that word when they are gorgeous mahogany) players into top teams. A statue to commemorate three of those players is to be built in Birmingham.
What he said has been deemed wrong and he has paid the price. If anyone called Ron a white bastard no one would turn a hair.
The term he used is in common speech among black people.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heaven's sake - how long should someone be discriminated against for an ill-advised comment many years ago. Those without sin and all that.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Lex I always enjoy reading your posts... your views/opinions are always refreshing and very measured in all of the BB madness each year...this is another great post by you...I don't really know anything in depth about his career but I do know he was very successful because he was a very good manager...I've also been talking to a few members on the forum who have explained a lot of the positive things he's contributed to encouraging black players in the game...I agree with you that people do have the right to moral outrage at what he said because it was so unacceptable, but I do also understand how someone could say something completely out of character if they're feeling extreme frustration at something, which I'm sure he was at the time...anyway that outrage has been expressed, it was 10 years ago, he lost his career because of it so he's paid a high price and had lots of time to reflect on it himself...I don't think he deserves to be defined in any way by that one thing he did/said without also looking at all the positive things he did as well which actually don't just balance it out but seem to be very much more from what I can see...I would like to see him talk about it in the house only because it would be good for him to maybe 'shake it all off' finally..?....


..anyway, you've put it all so much better than me, as always a pleasure to read your post...

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I really hope it is raised, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say now..but he was a very good football manager and would choose the right players regardless of race, so I don't think his argument would necessarily indicate he wasn't racist, just good at his job....

Oh for heavens sake, how long should someone be persecuted for a poor choice of words many years ago. Those without sin and all that.

[LANDROVER]

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by RobInnes

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

But you do know the full story.
You summed it up nicely one racist comment said in exasperation describing a footballer. That's it.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by LANDROVER

I believe this racism sensitivity is is becoming farcical. The same thing applies to religion. I have friends who are black and behind closed doors we call each other all sorts of names and have a good laugh in doing so. Every other wrap song sung by black people refer to each other as n....rs, but its taboo to say this word if youre not of the same race.
Why can you refer to an Australian as an aussie but you cant refer to a Pakistani as a p..i.
Im british you can call me a brit. The worlds gone mad.

So much so I find it all very manipulative.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by boomoo

I agree with you and the post you replied to. But why does Ron have to live through all that again? When he was placed in wife swap with Tessa Sanderson she would not leave the subject alone even though he said over and over he did not want to discuss it. People drew the conclusion from that that he was a racist. If that was true he would not have agreed to the wife swap when he saw Tessa. He was called a racist when he obviously wasnt. His language was completely inappropriate.
When I was a child I had n***** brown shoes and n***** brown polish. At the time I thought that was a colour and only learnt many years later that it had something to do with people.
Carol Mc Givern knew exactly waht she was doing. A very nasty piece of work. I would rather have Ron at my back any day.

..he doesn't have to 'live through it again' but it is an opportunity for him to talk about it because he did come across as extremely arrogant in Wife Swap after the incident and lots of people including myself found it difficult to understand how someone of his age and supposed intelligence couldn't not realise why what he said was so offensive and yet at that time he seemed to have no regret at all..in the context of what he said it was a lot more than 'inappropriate'..that word had always been used in a 'superior' way, dating back to slavery...anyway as said before, I think he was angry and frustrated when he said it and it didn't denote any racism in him..

[BeloTheBelt]

Has anybody thought to dissect Ron's original comment to see what he was actually inferring ?
He was, I believe, suggesting that black people work harder than people with other skin colours and that this player (desailly) wasnt pulling his weight.
He simply let his guard down and used a word that, whilst ok to use many years ago, isnt acceptable to use anymore.
Arguably similar to the way you use language differently depending on what company you're in.eg I try not to swear in front of my kids, just as i tried not to in front of my parents but when i'm with my mates then i let the swear filter down. Sometimes however, theres a lapse in the filter and the odd word slips out in the wrong company.
Agree with earlier comments, Ron made a racist comment but is not a racist.

[Beso]

I was discussing this with my brother last night, funny thing was, or not so funny thing really, all my brother could add was the fact that desailly was lazy. Now that's racist.

The problem with that phrase he used, was that those adjectives have been used to make comments about black people, since white people owned them.

He just needed to throw in "thick", and then he had a full house on racist bingo. I'm pretty sure if you ever asked him now, he'd never use words like that again, but the way they slipped out show he was inherently racist.

[Kyle]

Looks like the comment got removed but it's nice to see the white heterosexual population of England are once again copping the blame for society's ills on this forum.

Originally Posted by parmnion

I was discussing this with my brother last night, funny thing was, or not so funny thing really, all my brother could add was the fact that desailly was lazy. Now that's racist.

Honours

Marseille

UEFA Champions League: 1992–1993

Milan

Serie A (2): 1993–94, 1995–96
UEFA Champions League: 1993–94
Supercoppa Italiana: 1994
UEFA Super Cup: 1994

Chelsea

UEFA Super Cup: 1998
FA Cup: 1999–2000
FA Charity Shield: 2000


International

France

FIFA World Cup: 1998
UEFA European Football Championship: 2000
FIFA Confederations Cup (2): 2001, 2003

Individual

Overall Team of the Decade – Premier League 10 Seasons Awards (1992/93 – 2001/02)
UEFA Euro 1996 Team of the Tournament
1998 FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament
UEFA Euro 2000 Team of the Tournament
FIFA 100

As you can see, your brother is completely correct. What a lazy bastard. He played in central midfield for one of the greatest club teams of all time.

[amu]

Maybe AJ can interview him when he gets out.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

The problem with that phrase he used, was that those adjectives have been used to make comments about black people, since white people owned them.

He just needed to throw in "thick", and then he had a full house on racist bingo. I'm pretty sure if you ever asked him now, he'd never use words like that again, but the way they slipped out show he was inherently racist.

..whether it did or didn't indicate inherent racism it was so far as any of us know a 'one off' remark 10 years age and the 'price to pay' has been paid by him..I started the thread because I was genuinely interested in opinions and also didn't know an awful lot about him other than the controversy and what I've found really interesting is the younger member's views because on the whole they don't excuse what he did because of 'an era' and acknowledge how unacceptable and wrong it was but just balanced it up with some of his positives as well, which is also important to do to get a 'complete person'...I'm not that far removed from Ron's 'era' and am aware of terminology 'back in the day' and no one I knew ever used that term because it's an obvious term for a feeling of 'superiority' and always has been...I didn't move in the 'football circles' though but to me that's irrelevant because he wasn't a young impressionable person who may have overhead something and not known it's meaning when he said it..he was a very 'worldly' astute and intelligent man and of course should have known better..and a 'football environment' makes no difference otherwise what are we saying ..'it's not racism, it's just football fans/players etc, so it's ok..'..really no excuse at all...

..anyway, I don't think I'll post in the thread again because enough now...I myself don't believe he's a racist but I've enjoyed and been 'enlightened' by some very intelligent and reasoned views in here...

..EDIT: oh and by a certain member in private conversations about the subject..he knows who he is..a very wise person...

[kitten59]

Why did they even let this ignoramus on the show? Besides being not too bright, he's a crashing BORE.