[arista]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I get it, both of you hate america and americans. However I don't think you should take it out on them just because of bad choices that Obama makes. Isn't that like being annoyed at the syrian people for bad choices their leader is making?

No its the President and his Red Line.
Utter Fool he has become ,worldwide

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Well, I think a lot of Americans understand the importance of the oil-dollar to the wealth of their economy, and tacitly endorse these wars for oil. Libya and Iraq both threatened to trade their oil in Euros or gold, and that marked the end of them.

that's is true. this is the main reason Iraq war happened, saddam wanted to trade his oil in euros

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I get it, both of you hate america and americans. However I don't think you should take it out on them just because of bad choices that Obama makes. Isn't that like being annoyed at the syrian people for bad choices their leader is making?

No, I don't hate Americans on the contary I actually think Americans are in general friendlier than Europeans. Having spent time in the US what struck me the most was the slightly warped worldview they seem to have. They see the world very much through a rosy US prism. They seem to believe the hype re their nation being the absolute leader on so many fronts a vanguard for peace love, freedom and benevolence . They are to a degree politically naive and insular due lack of travel to foreign countries which would broaden their minds.

They do not see what their Govt does in their name ie 800 military bases around the world , over a Trillion dollars a year spent on defence, more than all the other nations of the world combined. The flouting of the UN, the ease with which they start one illegal war after the next to fulfill a corporate Military industrial elite's wishes . The blind allegiance to Israel and the shameful support of their murderous policies.

This is just a glimpse of what the US does but the general US public cannot see this instead seeing their politics wrapped in a bouquet of patriotism. They have no idea of the vast array of arrogant, self serving , immoral and sometimes illegal policies being pursued in their name.

I wish the general US public would wake up to all of this and reclaim their Govt and like their constitution states " by the people for the people"....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No, I don't hate Americans on the contary I actually think Americans are in general friendlier than Europeans. Having spent time in the US what struck me the most was the slightly warped worldview they seem to have. They see the world very much through a rosy US prism. They seem to believe the hype re their nation being the absolute leader on so many fronts a vanguard for peace love, freedom and benevolence . They are to a degree politically naive and insular due lack of travel to foreign countries which would broaden their minds.

They do not see what their Govt does in their name ie 800 military bases around the world , over a Trillion dollars a year spent on defence, more than all the other nations of the world combined. The flouting of the UN, the ease with which they start one illegal war after the next to fulfill a corporate Military industrial elite's wishes . The blind allegiance to Israel and the shameful support of their murderous policies.

This is just a glimpse of what the US does but the general US public cannot see this instead seeing their politics wrapped in a bouquet of patriotism. They have no idea of the vast array of arrogant, self serving , immoral and sometimes illegal policies being pursued in their name.

I wish the general US public would wake up to all of this and reclaim their Govt and like their constitution states " by the people for the people"....

This is merely some americans , mainly those who actually think fox news is a news channel. believe it or not the democrats get a stronger jewish vote than the republicans, because a lot of jews think whats happening in Israel is a disgrace and are against some of the Zionist policies. I also find americans on the whole friendlier than English people. I don't like going to many parts of England any more. that's why I left and went to Wales. Much of England, south east especially is a cold hostile mostly overcrowded concrete jungle with no identity these days.

As for americans, they hate their government and politicians even more than we do, this is partly why they fight to keep it small. Their constitution is a mere 13 pages , the new European one is 580 pages. Ours is a farce. its almost impossible to actually do business in Europe in many sectors. look at fishing, agriculture, transport etc even Gordon brown couldn't get through the new constitution, its unreadable....

The US constitution grew from the grass roots up, its smart its concise too...ironically written by scots Englishmen and Welshmen, dislillusioned by the tyranny of the English monarchy. the US system is infinitely better imho

However the US system does need serious looking at too. as you rightly say many of their foreign policies are an absolute disgrace. However I would rather question what are we doing than merely blaming the superpower. why do so many American companies succeed and so many European ones fail? thus resulting in making them so rich and powerful in the first place?

we are slaves to a Neanderthal-like socialist system of waste government interference, erosion of civil liberties. more cctv here per head in UK than anywhere on earth....the endless stealth taxes , the endless new petty contradictory laws and rules and fines in UK and Europe. all designed to pilfer more cash for the freeloading useless corrupt money grabbing politicians

we need to sort our mess if were ever to even have a presence on the world stage.....we haven't even got aiscraft carriers. our soldiers buy kit off the yanks on the battlefield, we haven't even got a military hospital...we are a disgrace yet we feel the divine right to lecture other nations on ethics? why? our empire was the worst in history? our undemocratic monarchy is still in ownership of the country? what a joke. oh lets keep them to attract American tourists? is that the height of our lowly ambitions

yes bush was a psycho, yes the tea party are mental. But what are we? we don't even make decisions were poodles who follow them regardless
we are the ones who peddled the dodgy dossier and the lies about wmd's we set up Israel as it is? the great leader we could have had was john smith a class act and one who would have skillfully avoided the heinous nightmare of blairism

this government needs to terminate some of blairs 3000 petty laws, they need to back out of Europe too..we need more common sense less petty laws and rules and stupid targets. les sstealth taxes. tighter regulation on the corporate giants and far less regulation on the little man
oh and we should terminate vat too....that pernicious tax accelerated by the so called friend of business HA HA Maggie thatcher milk snatcher is simply a tax designed to stop small people expand their businesses and for corporate sto reclaim any losses. it is the single most immoral economic decision ever made by a british government

in the meantime, we need to find out exactly who carried out what crimes in Syria....probably through nato , though we also need to win public support in the UN and the EU. no one trusts the UN much and Russia has the veto, but it can be used as a useful tool to first win the argument, which the awful blair failed to do , hence the enemy became emboldened

[Nemo123]

I agree with you Nedusa again. I spent 4 months in America. They'd go out of their way to help you. But the World barely existed outside of the 50 States, and they do really think they are the cowboys with the white hats, well the naive ones do, and there's a lot of them. Their sacred 2nd amendment means they are ever vigilant of their own govt, so much so they need automatic rifles at the ready to repel them.There are a lot of libertarians among them unable to square hospitals and motorways with their ideology. I have a lot of sympathy for libertarians when I see the way govt.'s waste money, but people have to get on as a society in order to undertake and complete great projects. Otherwise we'd all be living in huts in the forest with slings and arrows, (because without cooperation we wouldn't have evolved the gun).

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by the truth

This is merely some americans , mainly those who actually think fox news is a news channel. believe it or not the democrats get a stronger jewish vote than the republicans, because a lot of jews think whats happening in Israel is a disgrace and are against some of the Zionist policies. I also find americans on the whole friendlier than English people. I don't like going to many parts of England any more. that's why I left and went to Wales. Much of England, south east especially is a cold hostile mostly overcrowded concrete jungle with no identity these days.

As for americans, they hate their government and politicians even more than we do, this is partly why they fight to keep it small. Their constitution is a mere 13 pages , the new European one is 580 pages. Ours is a farce. its almost impossible to actually do business in Europe in many sectors. look at fishing, agriculture, transport etc even Gordon brown couldn't get through the new constitution, its unreadable....

The US constitution grew from the grass roots up, its smart its concise too...ironically written by scots Englishmen and Welshmen, dislillusioned by the tyranny of the English monarchy. the US system is infinitely better imho

However the US system does need serious looking at too. as you rightly say many of their foreign policies are an absolute disgrace. However I would rather question what are we doing than merely blaming the superpower. why do so many American companies succeed and so many European ones fail? thus resulting in making them so rich and powerful in the first place?

we are slaves to a Neanderthal-like socialist system of waste government interference, erosion of civil liberties. more cctv here per head in UK than anywhere on earth....the endless stealth taxes , the endless new petty contradictory laws and rules and fines in UK and Europe. all designed to pilfer more cash for the freeloading useless corrupt money grabbing politicians

we need to sort our mess if were ever to even have a presence on the world stage.....we haven't even got aiscraft carriers. our soldiers buy kit off the yanks on the battlefield, we haven't even got a military hospital...we are a disgrace yet we feel the divine right to lecture other nations on ethics? why? our empire was the worst in history? our undemocratic monarchy is still in ownership of the country? what a joke. oh lets keep them to attract American tourists? is that the height of our lowly ambitions

yes bush was a psycho, yes the tea party are mental. But what are we? we don't even make decisions were poodles who follow them regardless
we are the ones who peddled the dodgy dossier and the lies about wmd's we set up Israel as it is? the great leader we could have had was john smith a class act and one who would have skillfully avoided the heinous nightmare of blairism

this government needs to terminate some of blairs 3000 petty laws, they need to back out of Europe too..we need more common sense less petty laws and rules and stupid targets. les sstealth taxes. tighter regulation on the corporate giants and far less regulation on the little man
oh and we should terminate vat too....that pernicious tax accelerated by the so called friend of business HA HA Maggie thatcher milk snatcher is simply a tax designed to stop small people expand their businesses and for corporate sto reclaim any losses. it is the single most immoral economic decision ever made by a british government

in the meantime, we need to find out exactly who carried out what crimes in Syria....probably through nato , though we also need to win public support in the UN and the EU. no one trusts the UN much and Russia has the veto, but it can be used as a useful tool to first win the argument, which the awful blair failed to do , hence the enemy became emboldened

Thanks Truth.... Very well constructed post in reply to mine, you expanded on a lot of the points I made and added a fair amount of background context.

Thanks for taking the time to post this .....

[arista]

Kerry is on a World tour
saying how its not a Iraq.


Yes its not
but it could become Far Worse like WW3.



Russia has put 3 more shios near there
they say for anty russians that need to get out of Syria?


You would think any Russians would have left
before this weeks Deadly Evil Shock & Awe Mega Bombing
by President Obama

[arista]

Kerry has Arrived in the UK.
SkyNewsHD Live


Feck Off back to your War Nation USA

[Nedusa]

I'm finding it hard to call this now, as each day passes I think it's less likely the US will go ahead with any Military action. In fact the noises coming from Obama suggest he is veering away from this course. I think he is praying the vote in congress fails on Tuesday and that he can do a David Cameron.

Nearly all the major powers are against Military action if not sanctioned by the UN. Only France, Turkey and Saudi Arabia want immediate military action but they all have their own personal reasons for wanting to remove Assad.

I hope no action will be taken as the further deaths of thousands of innocent Syrians helps nobody...!!!

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I'm finding it hard to call this now, as each day passes I think it's less likely the US will go ahead with any Military action. In fact the noises coming from Obama suggest he is veering away from this course. I think he is praying the vote in congress fails on Tuesday and that he can do a David Cameron.

Nearly all the major powers are against Military action if not sanctioned by the UN. Only France, Turkey and Saudi Arabia want immediate military action but they all have their own personal reasons for wanting to remove Assad.

I hope no action will be taken as the further deaths of thousands of innocent Syrians helps nobody...!!!

No USA and France are going to Attack
The President does not have to get congress behind him
He has power above them - The Evil Git

[arista]

Back in 1972 America Used
this.


The irony

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by arista

No USA and France are going to Attack
The President does not have to get congress behind him
He has power above them - The Evil Git

They were asking on the News today, Russia Today, if he would dare defy them, although he has the power to do so.

It's in the Democrats style to just fire missiles, just like they did in Clinton's time. War at an arm's remove.

[Nemo123]

Arista, if you thought that was ironic, watch this, from 2.45 with George Galloway:

http://ausbullion.blogspot.ie/2013/0...y-discuss.html

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Arista, if you thought that was ironic, watch this, from 2.45 with George Galloway:

http://ausbullion.blogspot.ie/2013/0...y-discuss.html

seen it



Meanwhile The Evil USA Attack on Syria
goes ahead soon

[Nedusa]

Talking to reporters after the conclusion of the G-20 meeting, the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, declared that any military intervention in Syria without United Nations Security Council authorization is an illegal act of aggression. He also said that his country will supply (sell, that is) the Syrian government with weapons to defend itself.

This statement, in a sense, clarifies an earlier declaration by his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, when he said that if the United States starts a war in Syria, Russia will not be part of it. Some analysts thought that Lavrov's statement signaled Russia's readiness to abandon Assad. The increased number of Russia warships near Syria and Putin's statement reveal a different strategy.

When the US provided weapons and training to the 1970-1980s Afghan rebels who exhausted the Soviet Union to the point of collapse, Putin was a KGB officer. Now a president, he is well aware of how the US exhausted the Soviet Union using proxy fighters and without committing American troops to the decade and a half long war in Afghanistan.

The Soviet Union on the other hand, bled money and troops in a war of attrition. Putin, publicly, likes to compare the possible war on Syria to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Privately, however, he might be thinking of the 1980s conflict in Afghanistan.

By refusing to send troops to support the Syrian government and providing it with sophisticated weapons instead, he is adopting the American strategy of the 1980s. He might be hoping that the US will be dragged into a protracted war of attrition similar to the one that, in addition to other factors, caused the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The similarities are striking. In the 1980s, the US worked with its ally, Saudi Arabia, to sharpen the propaganda campaign against the regime in Afghanistan and its backer, the Soviet Union. Consequently, tens of thousands of religious Wahhabis (using former secretary of state Hillary Clinton's words) from the Arab world gathered in military training camps in Pakistan to begin their holy war against the secular Afghan regime and its Soviet backers. The outcome is well known.

Today, again, with US consent, Saudi Arabia and Qatar have launched a propaganda war painting Assad as a brutal dictator and an agent of Russia and Iran. They have facilitated the transfer of religious zealots from Tunisia, Libya, Jordan, the Gulf States, and even Europe to Turkey where they have received training and weapons. They have then been helped to sneak into Syria.

Today, it is estimated that 10,000 foreigners fighting on the side of the Free Syrian Army in Syria for a single purpose: overthrowing the Syrian government. But what would happen after the fall of the government is anyone's guess because each group of rebels has a different agenda.

The engineers of this civil war reckoned that Assad would fall in months, if not weeks. Three years later, it appears that Assad is actually reversing the rebels' earlier gains. Saudi Arabia decided to pressure its ally, the US to do more to hasten the fall of the Syrian regime. Hence Obama's decision to launch military strikes to degrade Assad's military capabilities.

Obama faces strong resistance at home and abroad. While attending the meeting of the G-20, he hoped that he could drum some support and build a coalition. Only Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey supported a military strike with or without UNSC consent. He returns to Washington to build support at home for his war of choice despite a low 20% public support - a 20% of Americans unlikely to be from among the people who actually voted for him.

Putin does not need to prevent the attack and he does not seem interested in doing so. He seems interested in providing the Syrian government with the means to absorb the first strikes and react in a protracted way, forcing the US administration and its allies to do more over a long time, just like what happened in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

In other words, Putin is equally happy with or without a war that would cost his country nothing (Assad is paying for the weapons). As this deadly game between giants unfold, more Syrians will be killed, more civilians will be forced out of their homes, and more physical damage will be inflicted on an already devastated country, transforming Syria into another failed state due to acts of others.

The US, too, will bleed money and credibility because of another purposeless war. The way out for President Obama is to realize that he is being goaded into war by Saudi Arabia and an imaginary red line, to resist the sense of grandeur and hubris that comes with the privilege of commanding the most powerful army in the world today, and to launch a new diplomatic strategy initiative that will transform the Middle East and end the war in Syria by forcing all parties to reach a political settlement.

The proposed Geneva-2 peace conference remains the only path on which all (responsible) regional and global powers agree, though it may not be an option if Obama attacks the Syrian government.

[arista]

One Option now floating about
is Syria hand over all their Chemical Weapons

That would delay it all

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by arista

One Option now floating about
is Syria hand over all their Chemical Weapons

That would delay it all

Perhaps they might if Israel could be persuaded to hand over all their Nuclear weapons.....

I don't think the ice sheet has formed in Hell quite yet............!!!!

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Perhaps they might if Israel could be persuaded to hand over all their Nuclear weapons.....

I don't think the ice sheet has formed in Hell quite yet............!!!!

No they would never give up their Nukes
and in any case
its not them attacking (unless they are attacked)

[arista]

On Ch4News
just now in America a Lady shouted at a meeting
in Washington DC that she voted twice for this President
why are the Public - Not Getting a Vote on this.

Thats America - Not Democratic on this.

[Nedusa]

Just heard on RT news now that there is a plan for Syrian rebels to try and create a false flag attack on Israel using chemical weapons. This attack would come from Syrian govt held territory and would surely be blamed by the Israeli's on Assad's regime.

If this happens then all bets are off and forget all votes in US or anywhere else, the War would start immediately and it will destabilise the whole of the Middle East... The beginnings of a World conflict for sure....!!!!

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Just heard on RT news now that there is a plan for Syrian rebels to try and create a false flag attack on Israel using chemical weapons. This attack would come from Syrian govt held territory and would surely be blamed by the Israeli's on Assad's regime.

If this happens then all bets are off and forget all votes in US or anywhere else, the War would start immediately and it will destabilise the whole of the Middle East... The beginnings of a World conflict for sure....!!!!

Yes Rebels/al-Qaeda today also killed loads in
The Syrian Christian town of Maalula

Thats who the President likes - the rebels

[BBfanUSA]

Originally Posted by arista

On Ch4News
just now in America a Lady shouted at a meeting
in Washington DC that she voted twice for this President
why are the Public - Not Getting a Vote on this.

Thats America - Not Democratic on this.

Because if just the public decided on this, then WE WOULD GET NOTHING DONE. The majority of Americans would choose not to go to war. This is why we send representatives and senators to Washington

[Josy]

Read a few times tonight that Assad is willing to turn over his chemical weapons so why does Obama still want to go ahead with this attack?

Seems like he wants rid of the Regime...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Josy

Read a few times tonight that Assad is willing to turn over his chemical weapons so why does Obama still want to go ahead with this attack?

Seems like he wants rid of the Regime...

He said If they get Control/Ownership of all Chemical Weapons
then no attack.


Of course Assad is not moving fast on this - even
though all reports have said they want to give them up.
Assad should go on Worldwide TV News
and say he is giving them up
unless he wants America attacking.


Russia , China & Iran also want the chemical weapons given up.

[BBfanUSA]

Okay Russia is getting them and they have been very antiLGBT lately.What's wrong here?