[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

We could just change the name to Xmas

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Stop making trouble Niamh, or I'll come over there...

..for Xmas dinner? No problem

[GiRTh]

Xmas sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by Livia

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

I do agree in that Christians are the easiest target. There is a reason people don't attack Islam quite so publicly, and whether any of us like it or not, the public fight against Islam (as an example) has been taken over by the far right and no one wants to be associated with that either. We're too ignorant of Sikhs and Hindus, and most people actually believe that the big fat man sitting on a cushion is the Buddha. Most of us attended dreary assemblies with monotone hymns about spirits, love, and Jesus. It's what we know - it's always easier to mock an old friend than a stranger. And the CoE still gets a say when it comes to legislating the country. Pay tax, and don't expect your opinions to be taken more seriously because you believe in the supernatural. That's all I ask.

More children would know who Santa Claus over Jesus.

[King Gizzard]

Originally Posted by Livia

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

Would definitely agree with just about all of this, and whether or not it was stolen from pagan tradition we still celebrate Christmas because of Christianity/Saint Nicholas, not Pagan religion

Lets go the whole hog and have triple xmas.

[MTVN]

Well I guess Christmas as we know it has lots of different roots which are just as much cultural as religious, a lot of the celebrations have always been quite secular in a way, all the eating and drinking and extravagance is part of the reason it used to be the more godly sort who frowned on it so much

[cheeky_monkey]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its in The Mail I thought nobody took any notice of them.

I take no notice of The daily fail.

[Kizzy]

Witches were drowned..They said at the time 'Yule be sorry'..... *Maniacal laughter*

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Witches were drowned..They said at the time 'Yule be sorry'..... *Maniacal laughter*

Yes Evil Church.

[Kizzy]

Whatever you choose to put your 'faith' modern life has very little to do with the trappings of church for many.
Maybe too the likes of 'reverend' Flowers and the frequent exposures of the dark side of Catholicism make it hard for some to see the benefit?

[Stu]

I love celebrating the pagan bits .

[arista]

[Niall]

Given the often backwards and intolerant nature of the Church, I can't say I sympathise with them. Hopefully it'll push them in the right direction of modernisation, and to re-think the issues with which they are deeply misguided. Organised religion nearly always tends to be rather toxic anyway..

[Kizzy]

Blessed be!

[Kazanne]

I find churches quite comforting and peaceful.i don't get caught up in all the religious hoo ha,I have my belief which I don't force on others, so for me a church is a place to reflect and think.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I reckon if you took every Christian element out of Christmas, people would notice. For a start, you'd have to change the name.

Christianity is an easy target, I think. Look at how Christians are treated in the UK, seeing that it is a "Christian country". White, middle-class people are terrified of upsetting other religions and Christians bear the brunt of that, in my opinion. And at a report of the church crumbling, people are on here saying how pleased they are about it. If you're going to rejoice in the demise of Christianity, then take time off work to celebrate Christmas, I think that's a little cynical. [When I say 'you' I don't mean you personally].

I totally agree with this and as ever I am full of admiration and respect for your views on this which are as ever, well balanced.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

It hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years... You're surely not suggesting that non-believers are celebrating the ancient ritual? Don't see many people out making bonfires on 21st December... or adhering to any other pagan rites. They're worshiping mostly at the alter of consumerism, picking and choosing the bits of the Christian festival that they like most. The presents, the carols... the schmaltz. It seems a little disingenuous for those same people to be celebrating the reported and of Christianity.

You seem to be suggesting that Christians deserve to be ridiculed and chastised because they once burned witches. That's not your serious suggestion, surely. And on that point, I'm not sure witches were burned in the UK, I think they were mostly hanged... but that's a whole other discussion.

All I'm saying is, if you're an atheist, good luck to you, that's your affair.. But don't make it your mission to prove people of faith wrong. No one can prove what faith is... that's why it's called faith. Perhaps just allow people to express their faith freely without all the iconoclasts turning out to knock them down.

I 100% agree, brilliantly put and totally true

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Blessed be!

The great aneurin bevan who gave us the NHS and built 1 million social houses was a devout Christian as are so many other wonderful people... The Christian church feeds, clothes and saves millions of people worldwide. sadly all this is ignored in favour of a miniscule amount of perverts in the Church, a same level of perversion we see in every organization in the world. The good the Church does outweighs the bad by a zillion to one. The atheists can burn every Church down and celebrate their hatred. But the Christian beliefs will still live on in the hearts and minds of the billions of Christians

[Kizzy]

I don't see anyone rejoicing in it but it's understandable how it's happened, there will always be Christians, but maybe Christianity just won't be the multi million pound organisation it was?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't see anyone rejoicing in it but it's understandable how it's happened, there will always be Christians, but maybe Christianity just won't be the multi million pound organisation it was?

Look at the world, most organizations need money....these wonderful buildings don't pay for themselves neither does missionary work....But ultimately the beliefs will ensure it rises again against the current mindless self defeating cowardice of Christian bashing

[Stu]

Read in Christian Bale's Batman voice it makes for quite the experience.

[Kizzy]

Nobody was christian bashing though? Everyone is entitled to their view if that's atheist, agnostic or pagan.
Don't worry there's always the jam and jerusalem brigade from middle England, onward christian soldiers.....

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Stu

Read in Christian Bale's Batman voice it makes for quite the experience.

another non-contribution

[user104658]

I struggle with this... I know a couple of devout Christians and thwyre very nice, kind, generous people and they get a lot out of the church and the community that surrounds it, a lot of strength and support in tough times, which can only be a good thing.

However, trying to take organised reliion seriously is almost impossible. It's quite clearly ridiculous. They not only sound like fairytales but also it's very obvious (and understandable) WHY they exist (fear of death, fear of loss, fear of the unknown, a sense of belonging), which makes them even less believable, IMO.

It's like trying to keep a straight face whilst someone tells you in all sincerity that their best friend is Spiderman.

But each to their own... I suppose... so long as they're not hurting anyone (another debate, and certainly not all or even the majority of "believers" do harm) then each to their own. I personally find the whole concept as mad as a bag of frogs. And it's certainly not a "national disgrace" that the churches are seeing less attendance and support. Gone are the day's when "faith" was enforced through government, thankfully, and so keeping their flock is entirely their own responsibility. People aren't interested. It's as simple as that.


Side note on Christmas: it's true that it hasn't been a pagan festival for hundreds of years. But I'm afraid it also hasn't been a Christian one for at least three decades. You can't willingly accept the former whilst denying that the latter is also perfectly valid.