[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

So this is society's fault?

I'm not removing blame from the woman, no more than I remove blame from a murdering rapist just because he himself might have been abused as a child. I'm not trying to say that she, personally, isn't mentally very "wrong".

But yes: the bewilderingly poor standard of interaction that passes as "parenting" is largely society's "fault", if you can call it that. More just a consequence of society. It can't really be "at fault". it doesn't have reasoning or direction, it's more just... Faulty.

Human beings are social creatures by instinct. Isolated parents sometimes end up not coping for many reasons. Parenting in isolation is unnatural.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not removing blame from the woman, no more than I remove blame from a murdering rapist just because he himself might have been abused as a child. I'm not trying to say that she, personally, isn't mentally very "wrong".

But yes: the bewilderingly poor standard of interaction that passes as "parenting" is largely society's "fault", if you can call it that. More just a consequence of society. It can't really be "at fault". it doesn't have reasoning or direction, it's more just... Faulty.

Human beings are social creatures by instinct. Isolated parents sometimes end up not coping for many reasons. Parenting in isolation is unnatural.

..I'm not sure that society is any more or less 'faulty' than it ever was, though..?...


..specifically with this mother, I think that she's either very mentally ill or very evil and there have always been people like that...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I'm not sure that society is any more or less 'faulty' than it ever was, though..?...


..specifically with this mother, I think that she's either very mentally ill or very evil and there have always been people like that...

I'm not even saying it's particularly new, but that's not the same as saying "always". It's been pretty much the same story since the birth of industrialisation (and resulting population boom), a few hundred years now.

There are obviously exceptions but the truth is, most "evils" are mental illness and most "mental illness" has a trigger. The huge rise in post natal depression for example can be directly correlated with increasing medicalisation of birth (process taken over by midwives or doctors, bright lights, birth stress or trauma, immediate cord clamping or cutting, baby removed from mother's arms immediately for "cleaning" etc., possibly baby even taken away to "allow mother to rest"). All of these things have psychological and hormonal knock-on effects that are sometimes drastic.

Of course, most people even under all of these circumstances still end up being passable and loving parents. But these things (and many other relatively modern societal phenomena) demonstrably DO sometimes erode the instinctual parent-child bond. and where that bond is eroded, unspeakable things like this are more likely to happen, even (or especially?) when there are other underlying issues.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not even saying it's particularly new, but that's not the same as saying "always". It's been pretty much the same story since the birth of industrialisation (and resulting population boom), a few hundred years now.

There are obviously exceptions but the truth is, most "evils" are mental illness and most "mental illness" has a trigger. The huge rise in post natal depression for example can be directly correlated with increasing medicalisation of birth (process taken over by midwives or doctors, bright lights, birth stress or trauma, immediate cord clamping or cutting, baby removed from mother's arms immediately for "cleaning" etc., possibly baby even taken away to "allow mother to rest"). All of these things have psychological and hormonal knock-on effects that are sometimes drastic.

Of course, most people even under all of these circumstances still end up being passable and loving parents. But these things (and many other relatively modern societal phenomena) demonstrably DO sometimes erode the instinctual parent-child bond. and where that bond is eroded, unspeakable things like this are more likely to happen, even (or especially?) when there are other underlying issues.

...ahh, I understand what you're saying...I haven't really done any research on things like modern birth practises and the possible effects of that being a contributing factor to things like post natal depression, which is a very serious thing and I think in general, a lot of females don't get enough help with this because maybe it can be seen as 'baby blues..' and not taken seriously enough and I do know that any medical depression is not something that people just 'get over' after a period of time....I agree with you that even the most 'evil' of people can't be of 'sound mind' and do the things they do and it's an extreme of mental illness....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not removing blame from the woman, no more than I remove blame from a murdering rapist just because he himself might have been abused as a child. I'm not trying to say that she, personally, isn't mentally very "wrong".

But yes: the bewilderingly poor standard of interaction that passes as "parenting" is largely society's "fault", if you can call it that. More just a consequence of society. It can't really be "at fault". it doesn't have reasoning or direction, it's more just... Faulty.

Human beings are social creatures by instinct. Isolated parents sometimes end up not coping for many reasons. Parenting in isolation is unnatural.

People had things much tougher in the past, I don't understand why it's so particularly difficult for people now. There are a plethora of agencies sticking their oar in, and if they were better at it, stuff like this would happen less often.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

People had things much tougher in the past, I don't understand why it's so particularly difficult for people now. There are a plethora of agencies sticking their oar in, and if they were better at it, stuff like this would happen less often.

They did in many ways, yes, but at the same time, families and communities were closer. Today there are young women out there, stuck in a flat with one or more young children, and otherwise completely devoid of other meaningful human contact. No partner, no parents or other extended family, and neighbours / a surrounding community that couldn't care less or even look on with distaste (until something tragic happens, and then suddenly everyone is distraught...)

"Cabin fever" is a serious factor in cases like this. people are animals when it comes down to it and when animals feel trapped or cornered for too long, they do bat**** crazy things.

From my own experience, me and my partner have raised our kids thus far with zero support from anyone but each other (grandparents are not particularly involved, have never even babysat for an hour) and whilst we have other "parent friends", they're scattered across central Scotland, not a local community. Anyway... even that has been insane at times and we DO have each other. I have work as a "break", and there's scope for a nice long bath / the occasional long lie / just a shopping trip even, for either of us.

I can (fairly) confidently say I would absolutely never hurt my children. however, I'm also 90% certain that if I was doing it completely alone I would be pretty "broken" by now. I genuinely can't even imagine.

And that's as someone who ENJOYS being a parent and gets a lot out of it; honestly, not everyone is and does, is the sad truth.