[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What is the answer then?

Firstly, we're all descended from immigrants, so categorising them and us is not really that helpful in this situation. I don't think the current methods for dealing with this are perfect, but this thread is a collection of flawed ideals.

We've always had homeless people, and people starving, yet those on the right refuse to increase taxes to pay for things, and continue to strip away the social safety nets that are left.

I saw Cameron on TV the other day after the election, saying that what he learned, was that he needed to do welfare "reform". Now what do people think that actually means? It means taking more money from those that need it the most. I can't take any argument on immigration seriously while the government are doing their best to completely divide and conquer the country by increasing the gap between rich and poor.

So I don't think immigration is perfect, and there are lots of issues to deal with, but the government (this one and the last) are so scared of standing up to their corporate masters, they continue to demonise, attack, and take from the poorest people in the country.

Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them?

we have to use a term to describe them and immigrant is what we use. I have already posted about the "we are all immigrants line" I think most know the difference between a Pole, Estonian, Lithuanian in his/her twenties who arrived off the last boat and someones Granny who 20 generations ago came from Riga!

As for rich and poor that wont change, look at the numbers who do the lottery. people want to be rich and when they are are rich they tend to buy things for themselves and try to keep their money - we are a selfish bunch

Originally Posted by Livia

We're all descended from immigrants, yes. But that's nothing to do with this. Every country in Europe is descended from immigrants to an extent. The USA is descended from immigrants, you can't just walk in there and set up home. Same with Canada - part of the Commonwealth. You have to have something to offer them, a skill or a profession, and even then there's an application process and you have to wait to see if you've been successful. Opening our borders so that anyone at all from anywhere in Europe can come here has led to the majority of voters making their feelings known. Many people have come here to work, and in the process they've undercut indigenous workers. Some have come just to mooch, and if you don't believe that's true, then you're unconnected with reality. People want a better life for their families, and if this country hands stuff out for free, who wouldn't take it?

What this all boils down to is that people - not just in this country, but in other parts of Europe - feel the open borders situation is unworkable. Consequently, they've voted to the right. No one's saying immigration should stop completely. I guess we're lucky in this country they've turned to UKIP and not the BNP. The story's not the same in France... they've turned to the far right, and even in Germany they're further to the right than they have been since the 1940s. That worries me a lot. Part of my family came here after the last time Germany was on the far right. I don't want it to happen again and if we want to stop it, the free-for-all has to stop.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

we have to use a term to describe them and immigrant is what we use. I have already posted about the "we are all immigrants line" I think most know the difference between a Pole, Estonian, Lithuanian in his/her twenties who arrived off the last boat and someones Granny who 20 generations ago came from Riga!

As for rich and poor that wont change, look at the numbers who do the lottery. people want to be rich and when they are are rich they tend to buy things for themselves and try to keep their money - we are a selfish bunch

That's the perfect example of my point - we can tackle foreigners because they're the "other", but we can't tackle people worth hundreds of millions, because......it's natural to want to keep the money you get. Isn't that exactly what people who come here want as well?

You'll never fix a society that builds from the top down. Ever. Ahh those pesky rich people with their selfish tendencies, but one person on benefits who goes on holiday, makes news on this morning, but the wealthiest take more than a cheapo package to Fuengarola out of our pockets, and that's understandable.

There are issues to fix with immigration, but demonising one group, and providing cover for another, shows the reason that the left struggles with the issue.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion. and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.



That's the perfect example of my point - we can tackle foreigners because they're the "other", but we can't tackle people worth hundreds of millions, because......it's natural to want to keep the money you get. Isn't that exactly what people who come here want as well?

You'll never fix a society that builds from the top down. Ever. Ahh those pesky rich people with their selfish tendencies, but one person on benefits who goes on holiday, makes news on this morning, but the wealthiest take more than a cheapo package to Fuengarola out of our pockets, and that's understandable.

There are issues to fix with immigration, but demonising one group, and providing cover for another, shows the reason that the left struggles with the issue.

Hard to argue with any of that

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.

Yes, I agree. The "poor and starving" arguments are not mine. They are the issues that have been used to fight the election. They are emotive issues and they do exist, so it's easy to understand why those issues are used.

It's the perception of immigration that most people who voted UKIP have that has swung the vote. The perception that newcomers are getting something to which they're not morally entitled. And there are instances of that happening... and they are the instances that get the press. It's the same in other countries I imagine, which is why we've had the swing to the right.

The main parties have hedged and ducked and dived and generally avoided addressing people's concerns. Worse, if a discussion has been started, people have been labelled racists because they want to talk about it. It's a mare's nest. Hopefully, something positive will come out of this swing to UKIP. I'm pretty pessimistic about that though. But then a pessimist is just a well-informed optimist.