[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The other end of this is that there are MANY unwanted children already available for adoption, but these people who are supposedly so desperate dont want them as they want babies.

This may come across insensitive but meh. If you were that desperate for a child and couldn't have one naturally, I dont think you should be picky about the age of said child.

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

I think the issue of abortion is so complex and there are so many different issues that come under the umbrella of the concept that it's impossible for there to ever be a "correct" course of action... but I think it's an issue that should be decided upon by women and women only. Their bodies, their rights. I think it's wrong that a woman can choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it because he's then held accountable for that child even if he wants nothing to do with it; but that's one of the very few instances where it affects men. It's up to women everywhere.

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

If you're dead in a bin, you're dead in a bin. Can't really do anything about being alive when you're dead, whether you're a terminated foetus or an elderly person. This is such overly romanticised bollocks, I don't buy it whatsoever.

[Vicky.]

I do agree men should get a say, however I do not see how this would be feasible in reality. The man could say he wanted the child, the woman be forced to carry it, the woman dies during childbirth...what then? What if the guy decided late on that infact he didnt want the child?

I don't think its right for men to not get a say but I also don't think it is right to force someone to go through something that could effectively kill them or cause serious medical problems..

[Z]

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Okay, and what if a woman's been raped and falls pregnant? Under your warped logic does she have to keep that baby and raise it and be reminded of what happened to her every single day for the rest of her life?

Originally Posted by the truth

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

Yes, it was one of the things I thought of when I made my posts in this thread. That's why I believe it should only be up to the woman to make the decision whether she wants to keep the baby or not, it should always be a woman's decision. I feel like you're disagreeing with a point I haven't made here.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Who is to say they didn't? Condoms have something like a 2% fail rate...so 2 in every 100 people who use them could still get pregnant. Even if the woman is on the pill aswell theres a chance (albeit a small one) of falling pregnant still

I'm not pretending that everyone who has an abortion has took precautions against getting pregnant though..

The only certain way of not getting pregnant is to never have sex. And thats a bit unrealistic, to say from now on, only people who want a baby should ever have sex :S

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Who is to say they didn't? Condoms have something like a 2% fail rate...so 2 in every 100 people who use them could still get pregnant. Even if the woman is on the pill aswell theres a chance (albeit a small one) of falling pregnant still

I'm not pretending that everyone who has an abortion has took precautions against getting pregnant though..

The only certain way of not getting pregnant is to never have sex. And thats a bit unrealistic, to say from now on, only people who want a baby should ever have sex :S

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

She did actually address that in her post, a point you chose to ignore

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

She did actually address that in her post, a point you chose to ignore

not properly, a point you choose to ignore

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by the truth

not properly, a point you choose to ignore

But she did though, she mentioned the statistics of condoms failing, the fact that there's a very small chance, but still a chance that the pill could fail, why are you choosing to ignore parts of people's post and emphasize the parts that you feel you could blindly argue with?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by LiamPRW

But she did though, she mentioned the statistics of condoms failing, the fact that there's a very small chance, but still a chance that the pill could fail, why are you choosing to ignore parts of people's post and emphasize the parts that you feel you could blindly argue with?

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore

I genuinely have no idea what you're arguing for, you don't make sense and obviously don't read peoples posts properly before retaliating with your pointless drivel.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre the one choosing to ignore, a condom is 1 of many preventions as you know and choose to ignore

She mentions the Pill aswell which is also not 100% effective

[AnnieK]

No contraception is 100% effective or guaranteed...medications and illness effect the pill, implants and other hormone driven devices can become ineffective, condoms split and fail, sterilisations and vasectomies have been known to fail......you could take every precaution and STILL fall pregnant....it happens and probably more often than you think. I was told I couldn't have children....went through failed fertility treatments and started the adoption process but then fell pregnant naturally. Sometimes thingshappen which are well out of reasonable control

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

Anyway, I already mentioned 2 forms of contraception. Yes there are more but its slightly OTT to be expecting people to be using EVERY form of contraception. And tbh I dont think doctors would even let you be on the pill, implant, injection etc at the same time

[the truth]

Originally Posted by LiamPRW

I genuinely have no idea what you're arguing for, you don't make sense and obviously don't read peoples posts properly before retaliating with your pointless drivel.

pointless drivel ? defending the rights of millions of babies, fighting for better service for mothers and fathers considering abortion, shame on you

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....

I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make

[mizzy25]

Its not right or wrong, it all depends on the woman the circumstances etc.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

Again, I never even said that...