[Josy]

Was hoping the arguing etc would calm down now but there is some Orange Walks planned for Glasgow today so that may keep the tension going.

[andybigbro]

Originally Posted by Josy

Was hoping the arguing etc would calm down now but there is some Orange Walks planned for Glasgow today so that may keep the tension going.

Ugh! They shouldn't be allowed to do that.


Hopefully tonight is nothing like last night. I had plans to go into town tonight with my girlfriend but I'm not risking it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Josy

If anyone seen the vids last night you can see it's mostly neds, drunk and looking for fights and quite a few turning it into religious arguments.

Its absolutely tragic that the aftermath of the referendum has been hijacked by sectarian violence. Not unexpected but still tragic.

They're not religious arguments at all, that's the problem, it was (as you say) drunk, angry neds looking to fight and sectarianism always was. Anything they latch onto is just an excuse. The motivation is aggression for the sake of aggression. That's why it was inevitable, really... To have an excuse... they need an excuse to pick teams. Catholic vs Protestant, Celtic vs Rangers, Yes vs No, any excuse to divide and kick off... It makes me very sad that the world might look at this and think it's genuine political unrest, that it has anything to with the vote itself.

That said, the main reason that this endless, confused, and ill-focused anger (and drunkenness) exists to such an extent is because successive governments have had their boots firmly on the necks of certain sections of society for generations. There's no social mobility, no respect, no hope, for certain demographics and that manifests as directionless rage looking for any reason to come out. Somehow, somewhere, SOMETHING needs to change.


I was pro independence but the truth is that's because I was hoping for an escape from an elitist oligarchy that's choking the life out of all of us and laughing about it all the way to the bank. I don't dislike England or English people, or even London or Londoners, I just hate the wretched politics that come out of Westminster. I'm sort of starting to come around to the fact that maybe that's wrong headed. That the answer is not 5 million Scots running away from it, but a fairer and better society for EVERY ONE. I really hope that it can happen. I'm just not sure it can, and that's why I "wanted out". The constant flipping between barely distinguishable Labour and Tory governments is cancerous and slowly eroding all hope... And I just can't see any end to it. It's SO deeply embedded in our political system.

I've seen a lot of hope over the last few days. Large groups of newly politically aware people on social media who formed for the referendum who are saying, OK we're still part of the UK, but what we CAN do is stick together, make sure all politicians are held accountable every time they lie to us (all of us, not just Scotland), break their promises or try to control us through misinformation and media manipulation. There's no reason that anyone - yes voter, no voter, people in England - shouldn't all become a part of that. In my opinion it could truly herald a new era of accountability in politics. Governments and their election campaigns rely so heavily on ignorance in the population... Putting a dent in that, hopefully obliterating that, is a goal that we can all work towards. Maybe it's not too late? They don't understand social media and they are terrified of it... The free flow of information is creating an upcoming generation so different to the elder people of today. I just hope they don't find a way to stem that flow.

Either way I don't regret voting yes. I think the referendum only having that 45/55 split was essential. Anything more definitive (say 40/60 or lower) would have had nowhere near the political impact. I just hope to God we don't just slide back into the way things have been for so long. People need to stay interested, stay AWAKE, whichever way they voted.

[joeysteele]

Already there are a fair number of my family in Scotland who are now just about wishing they had voted 'yes' rather than 'no' now.
They were swayed in the end by the promise of new powers being seen to 'instantly' after the referendum.

It may well be more unrest to come yet.
That will be very sad to see and I hope doesn't materialise.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Already there are a fair number of my family in Scotland who are now just about wishing they had voted 'yes' rather than 'no' now.
They were swayed in the end by the promise of new powers being seen to 'instantly' after the referendum.

It may well be more unrest to come yet.
That will be very sad to see and I hope doesn't materialise.

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me ".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me ".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

This is what's ruining politics and good politicians media slur campaigns, traditionally the conservatives have spent an inordinate amount of money ensuring the oppositions perceived faux pas are under a microscope constantly.
Ed is correct in utilising the aftermath of the referendum for actually doing the job he is meant to do, and not shmoozing with journalists... Like you I'm astounded not many can see this grandstanding for what it is.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The stupid thing is that if you actually read what Miliband is saying, I don't necessarily disagree with him. He's basically saying that it's important for the agreement to be honoured but equally important that it's done properly, that what is being offered is considered and discussed, that people are consulted, before a decision is made on exactly what is being done. He warns against rushing anything through "under the table" at Westminster because it's likely to be full of holes and may even be to the detriment of Scotland. It makes a lot of sense. He's 100% correct that if this is being done, it needs to be done properly and not a cobbled together goody bag of flimsy, vague crap just to fit a tight deadline. He's also mentioned devolution for English regions which if done right would be one of the biggest steps towards social justice we've seen in generations. Not that I believe he'll get that, too many London powers would be working against him.

Of course, the headlines and that little bold chunk of text at the start of every article is completely misrepresenting the actual content of what has been said... And as ever people are buying it hook line and sinker. The ONLY explanation for this, is that the UK media was never just "pro union", it's actually plain "pro tory", as this is being used now as a tool to undermine Labour whilst making it seem that Mr Cameron had honourable intentions. "I wanted to give yous powerses, honest, but that mean Ed stoppeded me ".

If people don't open their eyes, and quickly, we're getting a second Tory term, which will make the cuts and policies delivered in the last 4 years look like a beautiful meadow of rainbows and sunshine.

Great post, being an optimist and for once being more thankful for social media,I think most eyes are open and will stay open for the next election.

The message however needs to be constatntly made and got through of the dangers already presented and the greater dangers to come if this Conservative party got elected.

For me, I cannot see any way they could on their own,they could just at a push be the lragest party but with depleted Lib Dem numbers, no way could they have the luxury of votes in Parliament that have had over the last 4 years, even with them on board again.

That is my first hope, however my main hope is that they are turfed out of office decisively,I still expect a minimum 30 overall majority for Labour and I really hope Labour do not give up on that.
Forget the fact that Ed Miliband is still not that popular with voters, use the big guns to present the message.
he can show his competence once elected as PM.

Margaret Thatcher was way behind Jim Callaghan from all I have read and heard as to then in 1979 but managed to win an overall majority in the region of 40.

Following this referendum,I still feel sure it will got thoruhg, I am a bit peeved the Lib Dems are taking their time is saying much as to this so far but I would like to see them broadly come out in favour of Ed Miliband's stance and ensure the passage of the powers for Scotland go through as promised with the other issue looked at separately.

For me, if this PM insists on other conditions of transferring the powers,thereby moving the goalposts then I really hope he pays for that at the election in 2015.

He is right to raise any issue he likes and plan to do something to address it, his first and only priority now however should be, to with the support of the other main parties, fulfil the promise he signed up to with no other wording or conditions listed at the time.
No matter the threats and grumbling from his own more extreme MPs.

One thing is for sure, the 2015 election is going to be on the most vile and dirtiest of campaigns ever, something that will only lead to voters being turned off even more.
It will not be a good advert for politics at all unlike this referendum for Scottish independence which was in the main.

[the truth]

the spineless plebs in Westminster all had the exact same opinions.....all paid for by their "sponsors" pathetic....bbc also spewed out their establishment propaganda, that twat nick robinson got more airtime than alex salmond and the snp put together

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

the spineless plebs in Westminster all had the exact same opinions.....all paid for by their "sponsors" pathetic....bbc also spewed out their establishment propaganda, that twat nick robinson got more airtime than alex salmond and the snp put together

I found the BBC coverage rather questionable at times I agree with that.
Then again, I find most of what they do not strictly in accordance with their impartiality 'rule'.

[arista]

Alex has said the no voters
were tricked


But the PM has confirmed, today the Scottish Plan by the 3 leaders
will go ahead

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Alex has said the no voters
were tricked


But the PM has confirmed, today the Scottish Plan by the 3 leaders
will go ahead

Which had he made that very clear rather than infer that one was conditional on the other,as he did the other day,that would have been a different story.

I don't trust this PM at all and I think he and some of his party hoped they could link the 2 issues together for the same vote.
Thankfully that rug has been pulled from under his feet,it has been seen through, and I see this latest statement as a damage limitation exercise from him, nothing more.

He was at risk of appearing as a PM whose word meant nothing at all and I guess he realised it would be unwise to take a whole Nation on as to that one by making Scotland wait until the English Issue was settled.

[the truth]

nick robinson is a tory. he was a tory in uni and still is. the wya his narratives completely swamp the news coverage is a disgrace

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

nick robinson is a tory. he was a tory in uni and still is. the wya his narratives completely swamp the news coverage is a disgrace

I dont care for any of the so called political experts but Nick Robinson does really irritate me a great deal.
I agree he is far too biased to be on TV so much as to political matters.

[Jord]

I voted yes so I'm gutted about the result, but what's done is done. I was in the city centre on Friday and there was a really grim atmosphere. Was very eery for Buchanan Street to be so quiet even although it was busy.

Originally Posted by Josy

Pictures On fb of buildings on fire now

Why is the news not covering this?

There was one news channel that referred to it as a "minor scuffle" apparently.

[lostalex]

so i guess scottish people really are as dumb as they look. (no offense)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by lostalex

so i guess scottish people really are as dumb as they look. (no offense)

Only 55% of us, and the majority of those are old people (79% of pensioners voted no, taking pensioners out of the equation the referendum result was nearly 60% yes).

Everyone already knows that old people are stupid.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Only 55% of us, and the majority of those are old people (79% of pensioners voted no, taking pensioners out of the equation the referendum result was nearly 60% yes).

Everyone already knows that old people are stupid.

No they aren't, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, you cant say with any authority who voted one way or another either since the ballot was private.

[joeysteele]

I don't think it can be assumed generally old people are stupid, in the case of Scotland at all, the younger people were likely more ready to take the challenge as to independence, from their perspective it seemed a risk worth taking.

For those much older, they have probably stronger ties with the other UK nations,some will have fought with other Brits in the 2nd world war, then also helping the UK build up the Country again after that too.
So the longer and stronger the ties,the less likely there will be a wish to sever those ties totally.

It indicates however for the future that someday the break will come,had this PM stuck to his original statement of linking the new Scots powers to a change in English voting then it may have come sooner than anyone could have ever thought.

Lostalex it was who said ages ago, this indepence wouldn't happen because people don't like change and in the main that is probably what was in the minds of the older voters.
No one is stupid for voting either way, both old and young looked at this from a likely different perspective and also their experience as to the UK.

In the end,although a decisive win for 'no' came about,it was still close,out of over 3 and a half million people voting,just something like 193,000 voting 'yes' instead of 'no' and the result would have gone the other way, that is how close it was and how many votes it came down to.

I am glad Scotland stayed but this govt and indeed the other parties at Westminster need to have people snapping at their heels to make sure they honour their promise to the Scots.
Also unlike how this PM and some in his Party have started after the referendum,now set out to treat the Scottish nation with far more respect that has been lacking for decades now.

The SNP need a really good leader to do that and keep the pressure on, Nicola Sturgeon for me is not the person,I just wish Alex Salmond had stayed and seen that one through.
As even now, he may yet still be proven right that in this referendum,there was an attempt by part of this Govt to 'use' the Scots to try to get their own way in other things.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No they aren't, that's a bit of a sweeping statement, you cant say with any authority who voted one way or another either since the ballot was private.

Ignore it Kizzy that's what happens when people don't get what they want.

[user104658]

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

Why are you sighing? How was I to know you were being 'flippant'?
Don't older people have children, or grandchildren to consider? Oh, but they wouldn't consider them because they're 'selfish', another unfair unfounded generalisation.
You don't know what they did, so it's best to stop assuming you can assess the thoughts of the elderly population of Scotland.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Sigh. I was obviously being flippant?

Anyway, no, obviously old people are not stupid any more than people in general are stupid (which is "quite a lot", to be fair, but anyway...). They didn't vote stupidly. For themselves, they voted sensibly.

What they did do though, was vote selfishly... more concerned with their own comfort in their twilight years than the futures of the hopeless and jobless young generations (who overwhelmingly were in favour of a "yes" vote).

That is a problem, to me. I'm sorry if it's taboo to say it but... a 70 year old voter is most likely going to be 6 feet under within a couple of decades. The teenagers and 20-somethings who wanted change, have to put up with their decision for the rest of their lives which could be 60 to 80 years. Our children and their children, have to put up with it forever. But yeah... old Bob and Sue want to buy a caravan, don't you know.

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that older people have more life experience and are therefore more likely to make the correct decision than those younger. Your view is entirely coloured by the fact they didn't vote as you wanted them to. A very immature outlook.

[Kizzy]

You could just as easy say too that the 16-17yr olds were just voting yes in a defiant anti establishment way, and hadn't fully understood the ramifications?..
But again nobody can say how or why for certain, it's all conjecture.

[joeysteele]

Really, it doesn't matter whether someone is 100 years old or 16 years old as to this.

All have an equal right to decide what they see is the best way forward for them,from their perspectives, their experiences of life, how they want their Country to be.

Older people have lived longer and that is the only difference,older people have over the past few decades seen many people in just their teens and 20s killed and their lives lost, there are no guarantees as to life.
In these uncertain times where older people have seen in the past what can be achieved together with others,that was likely a factor as to how and why they voted as they did.

Younger people have a different view possibly overall of such things, so that swayed how they voted probably too.

I saw endless debates with the young voters and older voters, both sets of ages having undecided voters among them,with only a small issue likely swaying how they eventually voted.

Old people are not stupid and neither are young people,they are just all equal citizens of Scotland and now still the UK too.
They have every right,without criticism or insult,to decide how they cast their votes on any issue when asked to.

[Kizzy]