[user104658]

Originally Posted by Josy

The yes campaign left a helluva lot of questions unanswered and if like the ones I know then most no voters found it better to stay in the union with a government that won't always be there instead of taking a huge risk wandering into unknown territory with permanent independence.

I understand that but I think what many don't see is that the country (the UK) is wandering into unknown territory anyway. The entire western world is. I personally believe that an independent Scotland would have been in a better position to tackle that new world. I'm sure many people do believe that we're in a stronger position to enter it with the UK. I just wish that people at least knew that that's what they're weighing up.

We're facing uncertainty either way, things are going to be changing for all of us either way, there is no "keeping things as they are"... not now. Not for the last 10 or so years. It's just not feasible... it's not "change" vs "no change", it's a fork in the road with two unknown destinations, but no going back.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There is but on both sides of the coin. Pro-union sites and groups are union biased, pro-indy sites are independence biased. But they are BOTH THERE to be seen and assessed. The papers had bias and all going one way. I don't mind if a newspaper print biased opinion pieces, so long as they then also print biased opinion pieces offering the alternate view. That DID NOT happen. It was all pro-union, and often so filled with scaremongering and hyperbole that it was actually laughable.

There was an argument for independence, it wasn't exclusive to the web.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes, you did.

'So yeah... If Scotland now gets shafted by Westminster (which is looking like an increasing possibility)'

So in your opinion, Westminster = England?

Oh dear...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

The similarities with Big Brother fans who make up conspiracies when a vote doesn't go their way are uncanny.

There must be some psychological effect going on, like the more passionate people get about something the more they can't accept that other people don't share the same viewpoint.

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There was an argument for independence, it wasn't exclusive to the web.

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

There was a whole campaign.. on television, not the BBC obv but then not much is.

[James]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.

There's previous posts in the thread about voting conspiracies - I was referring to those.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It certainly wasn't in the printed media or on the BBC...

That's just not true

[Cherie]

I wonder what the percentage the No vote had the Scottish Diaspora been allowed a vote, 800,00 Scots live in England and a Yes vote would have impacted on their lives far more than those living in Scotland, they must have gone through all sorts of hell wondering what their futures were if the vote was yes, yet their voice was silenced as was any Scottish born living in the Eurozone. If they do revisit this anytime soon, give every Scottish born person a vote, it affects all not just those living in Scotland.

[lostalex]

The Russian observers have said that it was a sham. They said it wasn't democratic and there was probably corruption. It wasn't up to international standards.

I think we need a re-vote.

"Russia has said the conduct of the Scottish referendum "did not meet international standards", with its observers complaining the count took place in rooms that were too big and that the procedure was badly flawed."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ish-referendum

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I wonder what the percentage the No vote had the Scottish Diaspora been allowed a vote, 800,00 Scots live in England and a Yes vote would have impacted on their lives far more than those living in Scotland, they must have gone through all sorts of hell wondering what their futures were if the vote was yes, yet their voice was silenced as was any Scottish born living in the Eurozone. If they do revisit this anytime soon, give every Scottish born person a vote, it affects all not just those living in Scotland.

My Dad was fuming he never got a say in the country of his birth and the one he spent half of his life. Needless to say having lived in Scotland, served in the forces and now living in England with an English wife and having two mongrel kids he was always gonna vote no.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Kyle

My Dad was fuming he never got a say in the country of his birth and the one he spent half of his life. Needless to say having lived in Scotland, served in the forces and now living in England with an English wife and having two mongrel kids he was always gonna vote no.

yea, the scots are fickle like that. AND DON'T YOU ****ING FORGET IT YOU ****ING LIMEY/ j/k #bettertogether

[lime]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who has mentioned conspiracy? I don't think anything was rigged or votes were miscounted. I do think that people were misguided in their voting.

The pro-union stance of the media isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact.

Have to agree with you with regards to the media coverage .

As someone who is not from the Uk nor do I live there ...sky news is always on at the reception at work (BTW I am a South African living in Ireland since '99)..alot of us where literaly cringeing at the smirks and smug looks off some of their presenters when someone from the "Yes" side was speaking.It actually made uncomfortable viewing at times

[Kizzy]

It might have made a difference if it went on your place of birth but then there would be the risk of document forgery. Best to keep the vote for those living there and directly affected.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by lime

Have to agree with you with regards to the media coverage .

As someone who is not from the Uk nor do I live there ...sky news is always on at the reception at work (BTW I am a South African living in Ireland since '99)..alot of us where literaly cringeing at the smirks and smug looks off some of their presenters when someone from the "Yes" side was speaking.It actually made uncomfortable viewing at times

Exactly. It's not that both sides of the argument weren't presented... it's that the No argument was presented authoritatively and enthusiastically whilst the counter arguments were presented with this face:

Oh by the way... Mr Cameron has announced that whilst more powers will be delivered to Scotland as promised - they will come hand-in-hand with a cut in overall funding. Would anyone still like to argue over whether or not "No" voters were deceived? The number of "No" voters kicking off about it would suggest otherwise...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So in your opinion, Westminster = England?

Oh dear...

Don't patronise me please, your post wasn't clear, in between you blaming the elderly, the media and westminster it seemed you'd lumped the English in with them.

[Kizzy]

Am I surprised devious dave has punished the Scottish for daring to be anti establishment? No.

[James]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Exactly. It's not that both sides of the argument weren't presented... it's that the No argument was presented authoritatively and enthusiastically whilst the counter arguments were presented with this face:

Oh by the way... Mr Cameron has announced that whilst more powers will be delivered to Scotland as promised - they will come hand-in-hand with a cut in overall funding. Would anyone still like to argue over whether or not "No" voters were deceived? The number of "No" voters kicking off about it would suggest otherwise...

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected. What about all the empty underivable promises the yes campaign made? Like getting currency union, rapid EU membership, sketchy defence plans.

Most people have known for ages how they were going to vote.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It might have made a difference if it went on your place of birth but then there would be the risk of document forgery. Best to keep the vote for those living there and directly affected.

I don't know how you could argue that only those living in Scotland would be directly affected? what would have happened to those working in the European Union if Scotland was no longer a member state? Producing a passport to vote once you registered at the Polling station would take care of document forgery, how many people are going to forge a passport so they could vote in a referendum? were there policies in place for Scottish Citizens that no longer met the criteria for working in Europe if the vote was yes? People have relocated due to the lack of employment in Scotland who might hope to return one day denied their voice, I thought that was an appalling breach of human rights!

[Josy]

Originally Posted by James

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected. What about all the empty underivable promises the yes campaign made? Like getting currency union, rapid EU membership, sketchy defence plans.

Most people have known for ages how they were going to vote.

Exactly. Especially the bolded part.

Also must say I'm pretty shocked tbh at how much Salmond is coming across now as what only can be described as a very sore loser, especially the things he has been coming out with these past few days, so much for his 'We will now go ahead together united as one nation' speech he made after the results came out.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

It's just Salmond doing his usual political manoeuvering trying to make enough people believe they were deceived to change things around or get the SNP re-elected.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. something that David Cameron has said is, somehow, inexplicably, Salmond's political maneuvering? In what possible way? It came directly from the mouth of the prime minister... The promised powers will come hand in hand with a nice big slash in budget.

Also... If it was truly the case that everyone had long decided how they would vote, do you really think the party leaders would have been scrambling not 2 weeks ago to draw up this agreement to transfer powers? The polls over the last year shifted from nearly 70/30 to hovering around 50/50. It may indeed not be the case but honestly, it is entirely plausible that at least a chunk of that final 5% shift was swayed by that final agreement for transferring powers.

Also, (in my mind) trying but failing to live up to ambitious election pledges when they're proven not to be feasible (as I agree is true of many pro-indy pledges) is one thing. Making promises with absolutely NO intention of them ever being a reality is quite another. It's been less than a WEEK since the referendum. Mr Cameron isn't saying "unfortunately some of these promises are going to fall short", he's outright admitting that this was the intention all along.

It's the absolute worst of politics. What a complete shambles. And we (the UK, Scottish and English) are now expected to trust these people to run the country? We're expected to believe any word they have to say again... Ever?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Making promises with absolutely NO intention of them ever being a reality is quite another. It's been less than a WEEK since the referendum. Mr Cameron isn't saying "unfortunately some of these promises are going to fall short", he's outright admitting that this was the intention all along.

Each party has confirmed over and over again that they are sticking to the commitment made to the Scottish voters, so yet again, the statements you are making are totally false.

If, in 6 months time, the promises have not been delivered as per the published timetable then there will be grounds for concern. Until then, this is just propaganda aimed at feeding hate.

[the truth]

scotland is the best part of the uk by far, probably always was....best landscape in the world bar none.....fantastic coastline, wonderful architecture, strong agriculture, massive areas of fertile land, amazing for outdoor pursuits, best for salmon fishing, best lakes/lochs, boating , sailing, kayaking, rock climbing, mountains, best golf courses, strong unique culture, wonderful hospitality....no civil wars either...england and wales are greta countries too.....but the congestion here is worse, the social disorder down south east is intolerable as is the traffic the smog the culture clashes....despite the relative poverty in yorkshire wales etc these are still far better places to live if youre selective and can afford the nicer parts....the only areas the scots miss out to england and wales is rugby football and cricket, theyre crap at all 3....musically id also give the english and welsh the edge, unless youre into the proclaimers???

but really the country is just awesome

[Marsh.]

Can Scotland go independent to make this thread stop?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't know how you could argue that only those living in Scotland would be directly affected? what would have happened to those working in the European Union if Scotland was no longer a member state? Producing a passport to vote once you registered at the Polling station would take care of document forgery, how many people are going to forge a passport so they could vote in a referendum? were there policies in place for Scottish Citizens that no longer met the criteria for working in Europe if the vote was yes? People have relocated due to the lack of employment in Scotland who might hope to return one day denied their voice, I thought that was an appalling breach of human rights!

Ah yes I see, good point then it would be a grey area for them too of course. I think it's just how general elections work too though isn't it? if you're not registered as living in the UK you don't get a vote ( That's a guess I don't know)