[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree to an extent - I don't think school really ever manages to indoctrinate, parental influence is much stronger (i.e. a child from a religious household in a non-religious school will quite probably be religious themselves - and vice versa, a child from a non-religious household going to a religious school is likely to play along but ultimately reject religion as "truth"). We are an entirely non-religious household (my wife was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and yet rejected it as truth very early on, as many do, confirming what I was saying) and yet this summer our 4 year old attended a "summer camp" at the local church hall run by a Christian group. She absolutely loved it and enjoyed the stories (or probably more that they were very enthusiastically acted out by the volunteers...) and she was full of questions when she came home. It opens up a plethora of learning opportunities. She decided for herself that they were obviously "just stories, like Frozen" which I'd be lying if I said I'm not glad about, but we're always careful not to lead her thought processes in either direction.

I can see where the alternative viewpoint is coming from though - and it doesn't necessarily mean that there "is indeed a valuable and relevant place for some religion in schools" - rather than strong moral stories are important and that those might be overlooked when every story being taught is religious and taught as truth. Many religious stories have wonderful messages. Many in my opinion have truly abhorrent messages. But anyway - even if they are to be present, I disagree with it all being based around one doctrine, it should be a more well rounded moral / philosophical education. There are some wonderful stories in religions not traditionally taught in Western schools, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, and it would be very limiting to overlook these in favour of dogmatic Christianity / Catholicism / Islam, etc.I personally enjoy a lot of religious tales as much as any other, from all religions, living and dead (ancient greek and pre-Christianity Roman Empire myths and legends from those dead polytheistic religions are fascinating)... but in a universe of endless possibility I find the thought of subscribing to one religion completely depressing.

"We can only perceive a fraction of the near infinite planes of existence and barely understand anything about those immediately neighbouring ours, let alone the ones we haven't even considered! Imagine what incomprehensible things might b..."

Religious person: "Yeah but the answer is this "

spoilers! Boring!

..that's exactly it though, TS...a moral or philosophy story that has a good message for children has the same 'learning factor', whether it's based on a religion or not and it is also balanced with many religions, the ones you have mentioned in your post are some of them...because many religion based stories have great messages which are good for children and also easy for them to understand ... but there is obviously balance to it with many non religion sources as well, it's far from being an indoctrination or anything like that...and you're correct, what a child will take from it is also largely influenced and mainly influenced by other environmental factors, the family home being the main one obviously...but it would be blinkered to dismiss a great learning source just because there was an element of 'religion' to it...when there is actually something that all young people can learn from it about tolerance to others/empathy/kindness etc...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

I went to a Church of England primary school.Good school,Used to sing hymns every morning,Pray go to church for certain events.They never indoctrinated me because i never believed any of it at any point,Even as a 5 year old.Did'nt ever do me any harm at all.Nothing wrong with faith schools imo,Still have good memories of going there.

A good post.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that's exactly it though, TS...a moral or philosophy story that has a good message for children has the same 'learning factor', whether it's based on a religion or not and it is also balanced with many religions, the ones you have mentioned in your post are some of them...because many religion based stories have great messages which are good for children and also easy for them to understand ... but there is obviously balance to it with many non religion sources as well, it's far from being an indoctrination or anything like that...and you're correct, what a child will take from it is also largely influenced and mainly influenced by other environmental factors, the family home being the main one obviously...but it would be blinkered to dismiss a great learning source just because there was an element of 'religion' to it...when there is actually something that all young people can learn from it about tolerance to others/empathy/kindness etc...

Right but the problem arises when it's being taught as history / fact rather than as standalone stories, which does tend to happen in at least the more fundamental religious educations (Catholic, Muslim, etc.). When an adult and especially a teacher tells a child that something is true then they tend to believe it without question, if there is no alternate voice encouraging them to think critically. These beliefs then just become the truth of the world for some children and many find it hard to let go of that as they get older. I've seen people from religious backgrounds working themselves into a terrified state when they intellectually start to challenge what they've been taught but are battling against an ingrained message that they will be lost m doomed if they turn away from or question their deity. That, in my opinion, is something that can't be overlooked.

I think religion and religious stories should be taught, but only ever with the caveat of "some people believe..." "Christianity teaches that..." etc. Never as unquestioned truth?

[Marsh.]

A lot of it is entrenched in history though.

I went to a Catholic school and I think the misconception is that they drum "stories" into you and make you believe them. They don't.

They teach you about the history of religion, how and when each branch was created, the culture differences etc etc. It's not even just about Catholicism, they give you a broad religious and philosophical education. Which is a great thing.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A lot of it is entrenched in history though.

I went to a Catholic school and I think the misconception is that they drum "stories" into you and make you believe them. They don't.

They teach you about the history of religion, how and when each branch was created, the culture differences etc etc. It's not even just about Catholicism, they give you a broad religious and philosophical education. Which is a great thing.

Do they teach you that God might not be real? Do they teach you that Jesus may never have existed and if he did historically exist, he may not have been the son of God?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do they teach you that God might not be real? Do they teach you that Jesus may never have existed and if he did historically exist, he may not have been the son of God?

No, but they didn't "teach" you that he did exist.

It was Christianity is this.... Buddhism is this.... Hinduism is this....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A lot of it is entrenched in history though.

I went to a Catholic school and I think the misconception is that they drum "stories" into you and make you believe them. They don't.

They teach you about the history of religion, how and when each branch was created, the culture differences etc etc. It's not even just about Catholicism, they give you a broad religious and philosophical education. Which is a great thing.

Like they teach in normal schools. So lets just do away with all religious schools and provide the best education for children in a BS free environment

[Marsh.]

Well my religious school was a brilliant education so I have no issue with them.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

And if there was no religion at the school you went to do you think that you would have turned out different. Lets say that all the time that you were singing, going to church and praying you instead were learning new things?

Things like hymns and praying etc were during morning assembly which i believe most schools had,All my other non religious schools after had assemblies in the morning which were just as useless.The only thing that may have ate into lesson time would be the odd visit to church for harvest but that was like once a year.Tbh we'd never pay much attention to all the religious stuff,Just sit there or mess around.I don't think that stuff had any effect on me positive or negative,I only went there because it was the local primary school,It was just like any other school apart from what i mentioned.
Edit:Also there were kids there from other religions too,Sikhs,Muslims,Hindus etc.I even remember us celebrating Diwali one year in a play aswell as the Nativity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well my religious school was a brilliant education so I have no issue with them.

no your school was, its got nowt to do with religion

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

my RE teacher had a beard

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Scott

my RE teacher had a beard

Mine actually looked like Jesus, it was brilliant. Although I suspect he might have been a Buddhist. He wasn't allowed to say what his own personal beliefs were but he always sounded just that little bit more knowledgeable and enthusiastic about Buddhism.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Scott

my RE teacher had a beard

But was she any good?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

no your school was, its got nowt to do with religion

You mentioned religious schools, mine was one so what's the difference?

People have a choice of schools to send their children so there is no problem.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Like they teach in normal schools. So lets just do away with all religious schools and provide the best education for children in a BS free environment

This is either a joke, or the slippery slope to Fascism - What do you propose next Leather T? How about a Ginger Hair Tax because you personally don't like Gingers?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Things like hymns and praying etc were during morning assembly which i believe most schools had,All my other non religious schools after had assemblies in the morning which were just as useless.The only thing that may have ate into lesson time would be the odd visit to church for harvest but that was like once a year.Tbh we'd never pay much attention to all the religious stuff,Just sit there or mess around.I don't think that stuff had any effect on me positive or negative,I only went there because it was the local primary school,It was just like any other school apart from what i mentioned.
Edit:Also there were kids there from other religions too,Sikhs,Muslims,Hindus etc.I even remember us celebrating Diwali one year in a play aswell as the Nativity.

Another balanced post.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A lot of it is entrenched in history though.

I went to a Catholic school and I think the misconception is that they drum "stories" into you and make you believe them. They don't.

They teach you about the history of religion, how and when each branch was created, the culture differences etc etc. It's not even just about Catholicism, they give you a broad religious and philosophical education. Which is a great thing.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is either a joke, or the slippery slope to Fascism - What do you propose next Leather T? How about a Ginger Hair Tax because you personally don't like Gingers?

Gingers clearly exist. They can't teach about gingers in school as long as they like

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Gingers clearly exist. They can't teach about gingers in school as long as they like

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is either a joke, or the slippery slope to Fascism - What do you propose next Leather T? How about a Ginger Hair Tax because you personally don't like Gingers?

No i just proprose not lying to children

Or is that a problem for you?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No i just proprose not lying to children

Or is that a problem for you?

There is no lying.

[Jake.]

RE has always been preached as a belief (well it was at my school at least, and I've attended two catholic schools)

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do they teach you that God might not be real? Do they teach you that Jesus may never have existed and if he did historically exist, he may not have been the son of God?

Well presumably Marsh was taught Science.. And for me it was more about Religions in historical aspects

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

There is no lying.

Oh for gods sake Morsh

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jake.

Well presumably Marsh was taught Science.. And for me it was more about Religions in historical aspects

Exactly.

Have some of these people been to religious schools? Do you think it's praying and "God lives on a cloud" for 6 hours a day?