[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

"People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers.

"Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?

"There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

"What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"

Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

Great post Kirk, there is always two sides to every coin this is why it is great to have an ever open mind.

Re the ego thing, for myself I do not have any as I respect everyones point of view. On the other hand I have been to a couple of churches, the Spiritualist being one of them. Because of their supposed qualities I thought they could teach me something but I soon realised that as some thought they had a gift, they expected their word to be the truth. Their egos were so great that they did not like being challenged. There was a great division at that time, my mind was with both but I was told I had to come down off of the fence and go on one side or the other. To me that wasnt at all spiritual so I left.

Many mediums are great but others do not seem to realise that they still have very far to go, there is still far more to perceive even at their misrepresented level of understanding.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jules2

[/B]

Great post Kirk, there is always two sides to every coin this is why it is great to have an ever open mind.

Re the ego thing, for myself I do not have any as I respect everyones point of view. On the other hand I have been to a couple of churches, the Spiritualist being one of them. Because of their supposed qualities I thought they could teach me something but I soon realised that as some thought they had a gift, they expected their word to be the truth. Their egos were so great that they did not like being challenged. There was a great division at that time, my mind was with both but I was told I had to come down off of the fence and go on one side or the other. To me that wasnt at all spiritual so I left.

Many mediums are great but others do not seem to realise that they still have very far to go, there is still far more to perceive even at their misrepresented level of understanding.

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by lostalex

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

Tbh Lostalex, I do believe that we do not have to be sheep, we have to think for ourselves and keep our minds open at all times. There is nothing that we can really prove for everyone. The things which I think today may, in a few years time, be proven to be wrong. I wont feel blue though as my mind is never closed.

There are so many thoughts about everything that I do not see the connection between "can you prove blah blah blah" as being a religious aspect. To me it is fact, I say this you say that, can you prove what you say, I cant tbh because they are my experiences which I will not deny. I say I am not religious but I find comfort in a lot of things which are connected to religion, ie I love hymns (not hers psst nothing wrong in loving hers ).

Re Minatours and alike, for me I have to remember that all words are man made but I do not know and cannot prove whether a great being is in control. If so that being is energy something which we can all tap into to find a better understanding of life and purpose.

If life was diminshed and begun again, if a man was found upon a beach and he discovered a beano or a fairytale book, would he believe that that was the "bible" of sorts. The answer is we really do not know so for me we have to flip the coin for all/everything to be considered.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jules2

[/B]

Tbh Lostalex, I do believe that we do not have to be sheep, we have to think for ourselves and keep our minds open at all times. There is nothing that we can really prove for everyone. The things which I think today may, in a few years time, be proven to be wrong. I wont feel blue though as my mind is never closed.

There are so many thoughts about everything that I do not see the connection between "can you prove blah blah blah" as being a religious aspect. To me it is fact, I say this you say that, can you prove what you say, I cant tbh because they are my experiences which I will not deny. I say I am not religious but I find comfort in a lot of things which are connected to religion, ie I love hymns (not hers psst nothing wrong in loving hers ).

Re Minatours and alike, for me I have to remember that all words are man made but I do not know and cannot prove whether a great being is in control. If so that being is energy something which we can all tap into to find a better understanding of life and purpose.

If life was diminshed and begun again, if a man was found upon a beach and he discovered a beano or a fairytale book, would he believe that that was the "bible" of sorts. The answer is we really do not know so for me we have to flip the coin for all/everything to be considered.

I thnk we are finding out. because now that more and more children are raised without religion we also see that the next generations believe in it less, and religion is dying. because no one is born believing in god, it really is just brainwashing. The entire concept of God is just brainwashing by the churches that want to hold power over the people. Also we can see that the more educated people are in actual science and facts, the less likely they are to believe in God. and the opposite is also true, the less educated and less intelligent people are MORE likely to believe in God. Why does God choose the dumb people to believe in him? again, God sounds like an asshole.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I thnk we are finding out. because now that more and more children are raised without religion we also see that the next generations believe in it less, and religion is dying. because no one is born believing in god, it really is just brainwashing. The entire concept of God is just brainwashing by the churches that want to hold power over the people. Also we can see that the more educated people are in actual science and facts, the less likely they are to believe in God. and the opposite is also true, the less educated and less intelligent people are MORE likely to believe in God. Why does God choose the dumb people to believe in him? again, God sounds like an asshole.

My parents always made me go to Sunday School but they never went themselves I think it was more to get my brother and I out of the way

I have never pushed religion or my beliefs down my children and grandchildrens throats but have often asked what they believe in. Surprisingly enough they have good ethics. Just talking and explaining to them over the years are well within the reach of parents and grandparents. Their own life experiences give them an understanding that if they touch a hotplate, it burns.

Nobody is dumb though if they believe in God it is their way in life. Whilst things maybe changing now, there are many old school who will still be dogmatic about the whys and wherefores of their beliefs. So long as they make allowances for all then it is truly fine.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jules2

My parents always made me go to Sunday School but they never went themselves I think it was more to get my brother and I out of the way

I have never pushed religion or my beliefs down my children and grandchildrens throats but have often asked what they believe in. Surprisingly enough they have good ethics. Just talking and explaining to them over the years are well within the reach of parents and grandparents. Their own life experiences give them an understanding that if they touch a hotplate, it burns.

Nobody is dumb though if they believe in God it is their way in life. Whilst things maybe changing now, there are many old school who will still be dogmatic about the whys and wherefores of their beliefs. So long as they make allowances for all then it is truly fine.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

To me Alex love is unconditional and should never be withheld from a child. It is because of this my husband and I have had two of our grandchildren living with us for the last 12years. It was difficult to begin with with the eldest as she had taken the brunt of it all but we have got there. They have their own minds and believe that they can teach me old rope They are very philisophical in their approach though and they believe in trying to be the adult when it comes to falling out with their friends. They do not always succeed but then one in particular takes herself to task.

I believe that whilst we can guide them there is something instilled in a lot of children. They question me and our conversations are interactive. They are their own masters.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lostalex

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

I really do not know where you draw the above conclusions you do Alex based on your original post and my response to your original post - there really is no basis for such conclusions, they are delusional and misleading.

You did not post 'contentions' requiring 'evidence' in a response, merely your 'point of view' , so I responded civilly and quite reasonably with a counter point of view. This being so, before I respond to this post, I'd like to analyse just what you originally posted, and just what my response to that original posting was -- after which, I defy any sane, impartial reader to concur with your illogical rant above:

Firstly, you posted:

Original Post : "People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

My Response To Your Original Post: "I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers."

Original Post: "Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

My Response To Your Original Post:]"In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?"


Original Post: "There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

My Response To Your Original Post: Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

Original Post: "What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"


My Response To Your Original Post: Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

Analysing the above -- Just how did you drawn the conclusions you have in this post? How can you justify what you contend?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lostalex

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

"It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!"

The above claims are just not valid because I never stated those words or even intimated them, and have answered this in my last post.

"he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites."

Again Alex; I never stated those words or even intimated them, and nowhere in my response to your post do I allude to 'conspiracist' theories or the websites for such, and I do not regard myself as "smarter than everyone else" nor have I stated as much or intimated as much. In fact, in other posts on this thread I have stated how complex a subject this is and how there are internet articles and books on the subject written by far more intelligent and knowledgeable minds than mine.

That said, I am educated and intelligent and articulate, so I am not going to deliberately write in pidgin English and to the standard of an illiterate ignoramus simply to prevent people from wrongly attacking me for being a 'clever clogs'. Lastly, I'm neither a 'conspiracy' person, or a 'religious nut', and I've never heard of 'pat robertson' or 'jerry fallwell'.

"Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet."

Well actually, no I don't believe in 'Unicorns' or 'Minotaurs', but I do believe that these mythological creatures - like all myths - have a basis in historical reality. However, my non belief in these creatures renders a response to your challenge redundant.

"How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?"

'Religious people' is such a sweeping term and this sentence is far too generic and cryptic for me to address. Which particular 'religious people Alex? and just what have these 'religious people' specifically said which 'sounds so stupid'?

"The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?"."

I'll ignore the personal insult from you. I'm neither 'too proud' nor 'too dumb' to just say "i don't know"- as a search through my posts on this thread will attest, because I never state anything I believe as fact, but always state it as a 'belief'. What's more, where I have been asked a question which I don't have an answer to, I simply state that "I don't know". Look at my responses to LeatherTrumpet and Kyle among others and you'll see the truth of this. Further; I have never shirked from answering any questions in civil posts so I do not know - again - why you make this claim in a post about me.

However, I am amused by the irony in your erroneous claim because, any honest, impartial reader who compares my posts on this thread with yours, cannot deduce anything other than the fact that it is you Alex who act as if your opinions are facts and you who state the scientific theories which you espouse as absolutes.

"it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/."

I simply do not know what you mean by this, and cannot see where it fits into the context of the rest of your post.

My regards Alex anyway.