[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Ghosts etc is a murky topic for me, there could be some truth to some of the bollox you hear/see out there, but it's not related to religion, religion is a complete farce. Hopefully one day it's stamped out, imagine if all that time/effort spent on religion over the past 1-200 years had been devoted to science instead... We'd of colonized the entire solar system by now, ****ing religion... What has religion actually done for the human race? The crusades, the gulf war, Hitlers tyranny, extremists, the inquisition, human sacrifice... It's nothing more than an excuse to control people and commit atrocities.

And who first brought 'religion' into this topic?

I think that if man had lived by the 10 commandments over the past few thousands of years then we would have maybe conquered the universe at least, but would definitely have conquered disease, famine, drought, and even the ageing process, because - had man abided by the commandments - then there would have been no murders, thefts etc, and therefore, the zillion, sqillion, trillion billions which have been wasted,and are still being wasted, on fighting crime and wars, would have been instead invested in all types of research.

Anyway, all of the things you point out are man's doing and man's alone. Religion is man's invention.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And who first brought 'religion' into this topic?

I think that if man had lived by the 10 commandments over the past few thousands of years then we would have maybe conquered the universe at least, but would definitely have conquered disease, famine, drought, and even the ageing process, because - had man abided by the commandments - then there would have been no murders, thefts etc, and therefore, the zillion, sqillion, trillion billions which have been wasted,and are still being wasted, on fighting crime and wars, would have been instead invested in all types of research.

Anyway, all of the things you point out are man's doing and man's alone. Religion is man's invention.

If man had lived by the 10 commandments we would conquered the universe?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

If man had lived by the 10 commandments we would conquered the universe?

Maybe if we'd have put all the energy, money, time and knowhow that we've put into hating and killing each other and used those resources for something more constructive and beautiful the world would have been a very different place now. I'm not saying if everyone was religious that would have happened - we all know that religion doesn't have the monopoly on good, moral people - just that if we'd been the kind of species who didn't steal, murder, lie and covet our neighbour's ox, mankind might have been a greater species than we've turned out to be. Also, maybe science and technology might not have been as destructive as it's been because people could have been more ethical. We've gobbled up resources in our pursuit of technological advancement, almost exclusively driven by war and/or money, and in some cases that's resulted in devastation as great as war itself.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe if we'd have put all the energy, money, time and knowhow that we've put into hating and killing each other and used those resources for something more constructive and beautiful the world would have been a very different place now. I'm not saying if everyone was religious that would have happened - we all know that religion doesn't have the monopoly on good, moral people - just that if we'd been the kind of species who didn't steal, murder, lie and covet our neighbour's ox, mankind might have been a greater species than we've turned out to be. Also, maybe science and technology might not have been as destructive as it's been because people could have been more ethical. We've gobbled up resources in our pursuit of technological advancement, almost exclusively driven by war and/or money, and in some cases that's resulted in devastation as great as war itself.

Great post.

[Dollface]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe if we'd have put all the energy, money, time and knowhow that we've put into hating and killing each other and used those resources for something more constructive and beautiful the world would have been a very different place now. I'm not saying if everyone was religious that would have happened - we all know that religion doesn't have the monopoly on good, moral people - just that if we'd been the kind of species who didn't steal, murder, lie and covet our neighbour's ox, mankind might have been a greater species than we've turned out to be. Also, maybe science and technology might not have been as destructive as it's been because people could have been more ethical. We've gobbled up resources in our pursuit of technological advancement, almost exclusively driven by war and/or money, and in some cases that's resulted in devastation as great as war itself.

Like Marsh said, brilliant post Livia

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe if we'd have put all the energy, money, time and knowhow that we've put into hating and killing each other and used those resources for something more constructive and beautiful the world would have been a very different place now. I'm not saying if everyone was religious that would have happened - we all know that religion doesn't have the monopoly on good, moral people - just that if we'd been the kind of species who didn't steal, murder, lie and covet our neighbour's ox, mankind might have been a greater species than we've turned out to be. Also, maybe science and technology might not have been as destructive as it's been because people could have been more ethical. We've gobbled up resources in our pursuit of technological advancement, almost exclusively driven by war and/or money, and in some cases that's resulted in devastation as great as war itself.

Yes but life is not like that and never will be. One of the great problems of religion is this quest for nirvana rather than reality.

Its easy to see the problems but the solutions are hard to find. Education and population control is one of the answers.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes but life is not like that and never will be.

... was my point. Humans are greedy, covetous and violent, religious or not.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Livia

... was my point. Humans are greedy, covetous and violent, religious or not.

Indeed and only humans could have dreamed up a scheme like religion to justify all of the above and do so wearing silly clothes

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And who first brought 'religion' into this topic?

I think that if man had lived by the 10 commandments over the past few thousands of years then we would have maybe conquered the universe at least, but would definitely have conquered disease, famine, drought, and even the ageing process, because - had man abided by the commandments - then there would have been no murders, thefts etc, and therefore, the zillion, sqillion, trillion billions which have been wasted,and are still being wasted, on fighting crime and wars, would have been instead invested in all types of research.

Anyway, all of the things you point out are man's doing and man's alone. Religion is man's invention.

Yeah but people as a whole, are corrupt. Something like Religion would perhaps work if chimps figured out what it was but people cannot have something like religion without all of the sh!t that's happened over the years due to religious zealotry. If something is corruptable, we will corrupt it. Religion is the most vulnerable thing to corruption going and really shouldn't be allowed.

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe if we'd have put all the energy, money, time and knowhow that we've put into hating and killing each other and used those resources for something more constructive and beautiful the world would have been a very different place now. I'm not saying if everyone was religious that would have happened - we all know that religion doesn't have the monopoly on good, moral people - just that if we'd been the kind of species who didn't steal, murder, lie and covet our neighbour's ox, mankind might have been a greater species than we've turned out to be. Also, maybe science and technology might not have been as destructive as it's been because people could have been more ethical. We've gobbled up resources in our pursuit of technological advancement, almost exclusively driven by war and/or money, and in some cases that's resulted in devastation as great as war itself.

Isn't it strange though that the majority of killing and hating has been because of religion? Don't get me wrong we as a whole will use any excuse to commit atrocities but if it wasn't for religion they'd of been much harder to cover up.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Isn't it strange though that the majority of killing and hating has been because of religion? Don't get me wrong we as a whole will use any excuse to commit atrocities but if it wasn't for religion they'd of been much harder to cover up.

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

So perfectly put.

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Livia

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

According to this quote his warped perception of Christianity propelled him towards the holocaust.

'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

According to this quote his warped perception of Christianity propelled him towards the holocaust.

'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

Yep, religion itself isn't so bad (magnet for naivety at the worst) it's what it does to people that's bad. Somebody could read a passage from the Bible, Quran etc. and take it too literally or misconstrue its meaning, and suddenly it snowballs into a warped perception or ideology and it leads to atrocities like we've seen all through history. Religion is basically a weapon, some people wield it for the wrong reasons and kill/cause suffering to others. Unlike any other weapon though, there's no rules or regulations and there can't be really, so for the greater good it would be best removed or at least supervised. Both of those steps are nigh on impossible though, so we're stuck with nutcases like Hitler/ISIS running around doing their best to ruin the world, and people who devote their entire lives to religion that could of gone on to achieve wonderful things. I can respect why some turn to religion though, it gives a person false hope in this cesspit of a world we live in, and it's only human to cling to things like that, I guess some things we go through in life are easier to handle when we have faith to cling to.

Funnily enough I'm an optimist btw.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Yep, religion itself isn't so bad (magnet for naivety at the worst) it's what it does to people that's bad. Somebody could read a passage from the Bible, Quran etc. and take it too literally or misconstrue its meaning, and suddenly it snowballs into a warped perception or ideology and it leads to atrocities like we've seen all through history. Religion is basically a weapon, some people wield it for the wrong reasons and kill/cause suffering to others. Unlike any other weapon though, there's no rules or regulations and there can't be really, so for the greater good it would be best removed or at least supervised. Both of those steps are nigh on impossible though, so we're stuck with nutcases like Hitler/ISIS running around doing their best to ruin the world, and people who devote their entire lives to religion that could of gone on to achieve wonderful things. I can respect why some turn to religion though, it gives a person false hope in this cesspit of a world we live in, and it's only human to cling to things like that, I guess some things we go through in life are easier to handle when we have faith to cling to.

Funnily enough I'm an optimist btw.

A good post Creggle. Good points.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

I'm pretty sure that he was driven by the lust for power and the wish to build the Third Reich into a world-dominating regime. Being a "Christian", however perverse his ideology, doesn't necessarily mean that his crusade was a religious one, and I believe he was more driven by his own megalomania than by any religious doctrine. Germany being humiliated after WW1 and the ensuing depression were bigger driving factors in the rise of the Nazis than religion was.

But all that’s beside the point. Not all wars are fought on religious grounds, and yet people always say how many lives have been lost to religion. Atheists are just as violent as believers because human beings, with very few exceptions, are flawed.

[Dollface]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm pretty sure that he was driven by the lust for power and the wish to build the Third Reich into a world-dominating regime. Being a "Christian", however perverse his ideology, doesn't necessarily mean that his crusade was a religious one, and I believe he was more driven by his own megalomania than by any religious doctrine. Germany being humiliated after WW1 and the ensuing depression were bigger driving factors in the rise of the Nazis than religion was.

But all that’s beside the point. Not all wars are fought on religious grounds, and yet people always say how many lives have been lost to religion. Atheists are just as violent as believers because human beings, with very few exceptions, are flawed.