[Livia]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Isn't it strange though that the majority of killing and hating has been because of religion? Don't get me wrong we as a whole will use any excuse to commit atrocities but if it wasn't for religion they'd of been much harder to cover up.

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

So perfectly put.

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Livia

WW1 & 2 didn't have anything to do with religion. Japan massacring its way through south east Asia didn't have anything to do with religion. Vietnam didn't have anything to do with religion. Stalin slaughtered millions, but not in the name of religion. Although a lot of killing has been done in the name of religion, if we didn't have religion we'd still have spend a good part of history killing each other for power and/or money.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

According to this quote his warped perception of Christianity propelled him towards the holocaust.

'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

According to this quote his warped perception of Christianity propelled him towards the holocaust.

'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

Yep, religion itself isn't so bad (magnet for naivety at the worst) it's what it does to people that's bad. Somebody could read a passage from the Bible, Quran etc. and take it too literally or misconstrue its meaning, and suddenly it snowballs into a warped perception or ideology and it leads to atrocities like we've seen all through history. Religion is basically a weapon, some people wield it for the wrong reasons and kill/cause suffering to others. Unlike any other weapon though, there's no rules or regulations and there can't be really, so for the greater good it would be best removed or at least supervised. Both of those steps are nigh on impossible though, so we're stuck with nutcases like Hitler/ISIS running around doing their best to ruin the world, and people who devote their entire lives to religion that could of gone on to achieve wonderful things. I can respect why some turn to religion though, it gives a person false hope in this cesspit of a world we live in, and it's only human to cling to things like that, I guess some things we go through in life are easier to handle when we have faith to cling to.

Funnily enough I'm an optimist btw.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Yep, religion itself isn't so bad (magnet for naivety at the worst) it's what it does to people that's bad. Somebody could read a passage from the Bible, Quran etc. and take it too literally or misconstrue its meaning, and suddenly it snowballs into a warped perception or ideology and it leads to atrocities like we've seen all through history. Religion is basically a weapon, some people wield it for the wrong reasons and kill/cause suffering to others. Unlike any other weapon though, there's no rules or regulations and there can't be really, so for the greater good it would be best removed or at least supervised. Both of those steps are nigh on impossible though, so we're stuck with nutcases like Hitler/ISIS running around doing their best to ruin the world, and people who devote their entire lives to religion that could of gone on to achieve wonderful things. I can respect why some turn to religion though, it gives a person false hope in this cesspit of a world we live in, and it's only human to cling to things like that, I guess some things we go through in life are easier to handle when we have faith to cling to.

Funnily enough I'm an optimist btw.

A good post Creggle. Good points.

[kirklancaster]

'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.”

How such an insignificant, twisted, evil, little turd like Hitler captivated entire Nations and went on to cause a world war and, perpetrate the most mind-numbing, evil atrocities in human history, is unfathomable.

The incestuous bastard even spouts vitriolic lies in the above passage from Kizzie.

Jesus was a Jew himself - not a Christian, there were no Christians until after his death. Jesus did not fight against any 'Jewish' position per se. Yes, he was angered by corruption, inequality, the abuse of privilege - all the bad elements in life which were just as prevalent in Jewish society in Judea in his time, as they always have been in any other Country, before and since. Jesus's rage against the money changers in the Temple therefore, was not a rage against his own race - the Jews, but against what he perceived as corrupt practices by a very small minority of Jews.

Jesus's crucifixion on Calvary was preordained. It was his 'raison d'etre' the sole reason for his very existence. Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas, The Great Sanhedrin were all just unwitting pawns in God's Grand Plan to have his only son sacrificed. It had to be this way.

The Jews did not kill Christ. This is a vile anti-semitic falsehood perpetrated throughout history by anti-semitic hate-mongers for their own evil ends.

The Jews did not kill Christ - how could they have? because the Jews did not regard Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah (they still don't) so to the ruling Jewish authorities of his time, Jesus was nothing more than one of many 'false prophets', political agitators, and 'revolutionaries', who were a threat to their relatively peaceful existence under Roman rule, and to the very hard-fought and tenuous concessions they had won from them - including many concessions regarding their all-important religious practices and the Temple itself.

The Jews tried the criminal upstart and blasphemer Jesus of Nazareth as far as they were aware and concerned, and during his brief 'trial', Jesus had several opportunities to 'save himself' - he did not choose to because it was his sole preordained mission to die on the cross.

Remember, that although Caiaphas undoubtedly desired the death sentence for Jesus the blasphemer, Judaic law forbid it, and Jesus's death had to be sanctioned by the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate, so it was a Roman not a Jew who actually sentenced Jesus to death.

For Christ - he had to die for the sake of all humanity.

For Caiaphas - Jesus had to die for the sake of Jewish survival under their Roman oppressors.

One for the sake of many. The parallel is notable.

In any event, Hitler - far from being a 'Christian' is the 'Anti-Christ'.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Creggle

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Christianity was Hitler's main motivation for the majority of the things in his regime, he is what happens when a religious extremist so happens to wear a suit and lead a country.

I'm pretty sure that he was driven by the lust for power and the wish to build the Third Reich into a world-dominating regime. Being a "Christian", however perverse his ideology, doesn't necessarily mean that his crusade was a religious one, and I believe he was more driven by his own megalomania than by any religious doctrine. Germany being humiliated after WW1 and the ensuing depression were bigger driving factors in the rise of the Nazis than religion was.

But all that’s beside the point. Not all wars are fought on religious grounds, and yet people always say how many lives have been lost to religion. Atheists are just as violent as believers because human beings, with very few exceptions, are flawed.

[Dollface]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm pretty sure that he was driven by the lust for power and the wish to build the Third Reich into a world-dominating regime. Being a "Christian", however perverse his ideology, doesn't necessarily mean that his crusade was a religious one, and I believe he was more driven by his own megalomania than by any religious doctrine. Germany being humiliated after WW1 and the ensuing depression were bigger driving factors in the rise of the Nazis than religion was.

But all that’s beside the point. Not all wars are fought on religious grounds, and yet people always say how many lives have been lost to religion. Atheists are just as violent as believers because human beings, with very few exceptions, are flawed.