[Crimson Dynamo]

I would imagine she had many tales told to her as a child about Jesus and how he was good and saves people etc and she, when under extreme conditions, reached for anything.

And how does the op know she is grounded and rational - it sounds like she is not rational at all based on the op's evidence?

[Niamh.]

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

"Buy my book, you heathen. Sincerely Arista....uh I mean Richard"

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

So as a logical extension then Niamh - can we expect all Atheists at the hour of their death to suddenly start frantically believing? Why would an Atheist suddenly need confirmation that there is no God?

And I cannot accept that the sub-conscious mind of an Atheist would project a vision of Christ no matter how dire the circumstances she was in.

Unless - deep down inside her conscious - she was never really Atheist at all.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So as a logical extension then Niamh - can we expect all Atheists at the hour of their death to suddenly start frantically believing? Why would an Atheist suddenly need confirmation that there is no God?

You're the one asking why she didn't see Richard Dawkins not me and no I don't believe you can come to that "logical conclusion" because of one case you heard about There are also people who lose their faith in God when bad things happen to them, it works both ways

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And I cannot accept that the sub-conscious mind of an Atheist would project a vision of Christ no matter how dire the circumstances she was in.

Unless - deep down inside her conscious - she was never really Atheist at all.

Why not? imo this woman sounds like she had some sort of mental breakdown (understandably so) and as a coping mechanism her mind drew on a "saviour" for her. How could anyone possibly speculate on how an atheist or anyone else would react when in such a horrible situation?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're the one asking why she didn't see Richard Dawkins not me and no I don't believe you can come to that "logical conclusion" because of one case you heard about There are also people who lose their faith in God when bad things happen to them, it works both ways

I agree, but to be fair, I'm not concerned here with them, I was specifically asking in this case why Jesus?


Why not? imo this woman sounds like she had some sort of mental breakdown (understandably so) and as a coping mechanism her mind drew on a "saviour" for her. How could anyone possibly speculate on how an atheist or anyone else would react when in such a horrible situation?

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

My speculative opinion is that I dont think many people will be supporting her viewpoint...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

Why not Christ? "He's" a well known saviour type figure(who she'd obviously had some sort of experience with before as the vision was a memory of some handkerchief she saw as a kid), no matter who she envisioned you could say "why him/her?" If you're in a situation where you think you're going to die and you're scared about that then logically speaking a deity of some sort would be the ideal comfort to reach for, don't you think?

I never said your speculation was less valid than mine, I'm simply pointing out that everyones mind is different, everyones way of coping with situations is different

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So as a logical extension then Niamh - can we expect all Atheists at the hour of their death to suddenly start frantically believing? Why would an Atheist suddenly need confirmation that there is no God?

And I cannot accept that the sub-conscious mind of an Atheist would project a vision of Christ no matter how dire the circumstances she was in.

Unless - deep down inside her conscious - she was never really Atheist at all.

Hi Kirk, in your view what is the true definition of an Atheist? If we join a "society" we have to conform to rules, now as I cannot accept JC or "God" in the same light as Born Again Christians I term myself as an atheist but I know and accept the other side of life, the beginnings of all things and the joy of discovering that we are not alone.

I have said before that I believe in the seperation of the bodies, now this can be brought upon by the energy of distress, the sleep state or by ones own efforts. It is in this state that imo we come into touch with our visions.

I guess most of us have faith in something or another.....

[Crimson Dynamo]

"It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I had seen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday. I'm not a religious person"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-1571909.html

She does not say she is an atheist and she conjured up an image from her mind she saw as a child

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I had seen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday. I'm not a religious person"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-1571909.html

She does not say she is an atheist and she conjured up an image from her mind she saw as a child

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I hadseen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

the hanky....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the hanky....

I know what the Veronica Cloth is LT, and the Mandylion, and the Shroud of Turin, and the Sudarium of Oviedo - without having to google them.

What in don't know is; why the 'eheh'?

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts. Can people stay ontopic please

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Deleted some posts. Can people stay ontopic please

Amen to that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Amen to that.

As if to illustrate my point.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Livia

As if to illustrate my point.

What do you expect in reply to your condescending post Livia.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

My post that you've quoted wasn't "ripping the piss" out of that girl at all and I find it extremely insulting that you would accuse me of "ripping the piss" out of a woman who suffered such a horrible crime. If anything I was making a joke of the suggestion by Kirk (sorry kirk, it was lighthearted) that anyone would see a vision of Richard Dawkins in a situation like that

Well, I'm sorry you're insulted, Niamh, but I did find your post to be ridiculing the woman in that situation, regardless of how it was meant.

Originally Posted by bobnot

What do you expect in reply to your condescending post Livia.

Bob, every thread that has anything to do with God and religion ends the same way. Please don't try to pretend your post was a reaction to what I said. You probably would have posted it anyway despite the fact this is supposed to be 'serious debates'. People who believe in God are always ridiculed on here, but any time someone bites back, it's condescending.

I have yet to see a serious religious person on this forum ridicule and try to belittle atheists. It's just a shame that doesn't work in reverse.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I would genuinely welcome other FM’s thoughts and responses on this, but would make an appeal for those responses to be civil, rational, and relevant, so that this – potentially, fascinating and thought-provoking - thread is not prematurely ‘closed’ by the moderators because it has descended into the usual, abuse riddled, illogical melee, which all topics on religion seem to cause on here. So here goes:

On the 22nd of January 1992, Estate Agent Stephanie Slater was abducted by Michael Samms. During her captivity, she was raped, then blindfolded, had her feet and hands shackled, and forced into a laid down modified 'wheelie bin' which was far too small to accommodate her. She was suffering so much physical pain, in addition to her psychological and emotional trauma that she vainly tried to kill herself in that pitch-black prison by forcing her mouth and nose into a cloth and suffocating herself.

In the depths of her despair, and despite the blindfold and darkness, Stephanie 'saw' a bright light. In this light Jesus Christ appeared to her. After this ‘vision’, Stephanie said that she felt strangely 'at peace' and found the resolve to live through her ordeal.

Now, the strange thing is; that Stephanie was always an atheist prior to this, and cannot understand why it was Christ who appeared to her.

Incidentally, anyone who knows Stephanie Slater - or who has read her articles, or watched the various documentaries in which she features - knows that she is a thoroughly grounded, highly intelligent and rational woman not given to hysterics, hallucinations or delusions. She does however, now believe in God.

There are diverse logical reasons why so many people believe in God (whichever God that may be) but I just wonder why it wasn't Richard Dawkins who appeared to her.

The Brain does indeed play some strange tricks on people when they are under conditions of extreme stress or hunger or dehydration (or a combination of all 3).

I suggest that the brain increased the amount of endorphines/adrenaline and/or endogenous Dimethyltryptamine which is found in very small quantities in the pineal gland.

These chemicals , scientists say are responsible in part for the wild dream state and other out of body states in which hallucinations are experienced.

Maybe in this womans extremely disturbed state she had these visions. And as she survived her ordeal part of her may have attributed the vision as being a sign from a Deity.

This vision could have been the sign that a confirmed atheist would need in order to start believing.

On the other hand, it may actually have been a vision from Christ....




.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

The Brain does indeed play some strange tricks on people when they are under conditions of extreme stress or hunger or dehydration (or a combination of all 3).

I suggest that the brain increased the amount of endorphines/adrenaline and/or endogenous Dimethyltryptamine which is found in very small quantities in the pineal gland.

These chemicals , scientists say are responsible in part for the wild dream state and other out of body states in which hallucinations are experienced.

Maybe in this womans extremely disturbed state she had these visions. And as she survived her ordeal part of her may have attributed the vision as being a sign from a Deity.

This vision could have been the sign that a confirmed atheist would need in order to start believing.

On the other hand, it may actually have been a vision from Christ....

.

Excellent Nedusa.

[lostalex]

the truths, jesus never claimed to be god. it was his acolytes that used his name to gain power.

Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, he said that we are ALL children of God.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am perched for the Turin Shroud thread tomorrow...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I am perched for the Turin Shroud thread tomorrow...

You are a very, very funny and witty person LT, but you have just proved the old adage; 'Many a true word spoken in jest', and I am seriously thinking of starting a thread on just that topic ------ Or maybe not.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are a very, very funny and witty person LT, but you have just proved the old adage; 'Many a true word spoken in jest', and I am seriously thinking of starting a thread on just that topic ------ Or maybe not.

This is weird.As i read this post Terry Wogan just said on telly "many a true word spoken in jest",For real.