[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Christian country.

And her name doesn't strike me as very Islamic. It's most likely she has a Christian background.

If this happened in Cairo or Istanbul would it have been Jesus? Doubt it very much.

Eeeeeeeexactly

[LeatherTrumpet]

I would imagine she had many tales told to her as a child about Jesus and how he was good and saves people etc and she, when under extreme conditions, reached for anything.

And how does the op know she is grounded and rational - it sounds like she is not rational at all based on the op's evidence?

[Niamh.]

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

"Buy my book, you heathen. Sincerely Arista....uh I mean Richard"

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How could Stephanie know for sure if it was a hallucination or not? Her being a very grounded person in normal circumstances is irrelevant, she was not in a "normal" situation. Richard Dawkins is still alive for a start lol and has never claimed to be a God who was going to save all our souls so why would, when her mind was looking for a saviour an "anti saviour of the world believer" appear to her?

As for why Christ and not Buddha or Allah? I would imagine it's probably a geographical thing(I'm guessing by her name that she wasn't from a country where Muslimism or Buddhism is the most common religion) and the "God" who would be most familiar to her Also, Buddha wasn't even a "God" as far as I know

Yes, but I'm referring to her 'vision' as inspirational rather than God due to the fact that she was atheist. Surely, it's highly improbable that an atheist would 'conjure' up Jesus to bring her comfort and strengthen her resolve, when she has never believed in him. She had 'accepted' that she was going to be murdered, and being an atheist, I would think that in her very dire circumstances, she would find solace in an atheist figurehead like Dawkins who represented what she believed in, and certainly not Jesus.

Stephanie hailed from Birmingham which probably has as many Mosques as anywhere else in the country, so being atheist, she was probably just as exposed to the Islamic religion, people, and 'trappings', as Christianity, or any other religion - none of which she believed in.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, but I'm referring to her 'vision' as inspirational rather than God due to the fact that she was atheist. Surely, it's highly improbable that an atheist would 'conjure' up Jesus to bring her comfort and strengthen her resolve, when she has never believed in him. She had 'accepted' that she was going to be murdered, and being an atheist, I would think that in her very dire circumstances, she would find solace in an atheist figurehead like Dawkins who represented what she believed in, and certainly not Jesus.

Stephanie hailed from Birmingham which probably has as many Mosques as anywhere else in the country, so being atheist, she was probably just as exposed to the Islamic religion, people, and 'trappings', as Christianity, or any other religion - none of which she believed in.

Why on Earth would anyone, athiest or not find some sort of comfort from conjuring up Richard Dawkins? Besides the fact that he's still alive, he's not someone who your mind would think of to draw any sort of comfort from? My last post was a joke but it does apply here, What would he appear to tell her? "Congratulations Stephanie you were right, there is no God, If there was why would he let this horrible thing happen to you? Well, I'm off to rub salt in some Christian kidnappees wounds now, see ya later!"

"Stephanie" doesn't sound like a very Muslim name, England is a Christian country If she had seen "Allah" would you be sitting here saying why not Jesus, it must be true?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, but I'm referring to her 'vision' as inspirational rather than God due to the fact that she was atheist. Surely, it's highly improbable that an atheist would 'conjure' up Jesus to bring her comfort and strengthen her resolve, when she has never believed in him. She had 'accepted' that she was going to be murdered, and being an atheist, I would think that in her very dire circumstances, she would find solace in an atheist figurehead like Dawkins who represented what she believed in, and certainly not Jesus.

Stephanie hailed from Birmingham which probably has as many Mosques as anywhere else in the country, so being atheist, she was probably just as exposed to the Islamic religion, people, and 'trappings', as Christianity, or any other religion - none of which she believed in.

It is improbable. I don't see other masses of rape victims turning to Jesus. What we have here is a single testimony of a lady under extreme duress may I add as she was kept for many days against her own volition.

Let's not forget 'visions' are not and never will be 'proof' because they are personal and cannot be corroborated. Do you believe Joseph C Smith was visited by Jesus and directed to form the church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

So as a logical extension then Niamh - can we expect all Atheists at the hour of their death to suddenly start frantically believing? Why would an Atheist suddenly need confirmation that there is no God?

And I cannot accept that the sub-conscious mind of an Atheist would project a vision of Christ no matter how dire the circumstances she was in.

Unless - deep down inside her conscious - she was never really Atheist at all.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

It is improbable. I don't see other masses of rape victims turning to Jesus. What we have here is a single testimony of a lady under extreme duress may I add as she was kept for many days against her own volition.

Let's not forget 'visions' are not and never will be 'proof' because they are personal and cannot be corroborated. Do you believe Joseph C Smith was visited by Jesus and directed to form the church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints?

No Kyle, I do not believe that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel called Moroni, because - unlike Christ - there is no corroboration for his claim, as with the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.

But in any event I do not offer Stephanie's experience as any kind of 'proof' - a 'vision' can never be - what I'm asking, is given that she was an Atheist, why was her vision of Christ?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So as a logical extension then Niamh - can we expect all Atheists at the hour of their death to suddenly start frantically believing? Why would an Atheist suddenly need confirmation that there is no God?

You're the one asking why she didn't see Richard Dawkins not me and no I don't believe you can come to that "logical conclusion" because of one case you heard about There are also people who lose their faith in God when bad things happen to them, it works both ways

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And I cannot accept that the sub-conscious mind of an Atheist would project a vision of Christ no matter how dire the circumstances she was in.

Unless - deep down inside her conscious - she was never really Atheist at all.

Why not? imo this woman sounds like she had some sort of mental breakdown (understandably so) and as a coping mechanism her mind drew on a "saviour" for her. How could anyone possibly speculate on how an atheist or anyone else would react when in such a horrible situation?

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No Kyle, I do not believe that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel called Moroni, because - unlike Christ - there is no corroboration for his claim, as with the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.

But in any event I do not offer Stephanie's experience as any kind of 'proof' - a 'vision' can never be - what I'm asking, is given that she was an Atheist, why was her vision of Christ?

He also claimed to see two personages which are assumed to be Jesus Christ and God the father.

[LeatherTrumpet]

"It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I had seen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday. I'm not a religious person"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-1571909.html

She does not say she is an atheist and she conjured up an image from her mind she saw as a child

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

He also claimed to see two personages which are assumed to be Jesus Christ and God the father.

Yes you're right Kyle, I wasn't meaning to 'dilute' your statement's validity, I used his vision of 'Moroni' because I think it's such a contrived B.S. name and it for me underlines why I don't accept his 'visions'. (maybe I shouldn't have got so pissed last night).

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I had seen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday. I'm not a religious person"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-1571909.html

She does not say she is an atheist and she conjured up an image from her mind she saw as a child

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

It was an image from the handkerchief of St Veronica that I hadseen many years ago as a child, in Godshill church in the Isle of Wight, when we were on holiday.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

In other articles she does say she was an atheist and it still does not answer my original question LT - why Jesus?.

the hanky....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're the one asking why she didn't see Richard Dawkins not me and no I don't believe you can come to that "logical conclusion" because of one case you heard about There are also people who lose their faith in God when bad things happen to them, it works both ways

I agree, but to be fair, I'm not concerned here with them, I was specifically asking in this case why Jesus?


Why not? imo this woman sounds like she had some sort of mental breakdown (understandably so) and as a coping mechanism her mind drew on a "saviour" for her. How could anyone possibly speculate on how an atheist or anyone else would react when in such a horrible situation?

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

My speculative opinion is that I dont think many people will be supporting her viewpoint...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the hanky....

I know what the Veronica Cloth is LT, and the Mandylion, and the Shroud of Turin, and the Sudarium of Oviedo - without having to google them.

What in don't know is; why the 'eheh'?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, your view is plausible, but if Stephanie Slater herself is adamant that she was not having a mental breakdown, then why should I reach for other explanations? And why Christ as a 'coping mechanism'?

As to speculation Niamh, that's 'the nature of the beast' here, because on a host of subjects - not just religious ones - we cannot know but can only air speculative opinion. So my speculative opinion is no less valid than yours.

Why not Christ? "He's" a well known saviour type figure(who she'd obviously had some sort of experience with before as the vision was a memory of some handkerchief she saw as a kid), no matter who she envisioned you could say "why him/her?" If you're in a situation where you think you're going to die and you're scared about that then logically speaking a deity of some sort would be the ideal comfort to reach for, don't you think?

I never said your speculation was less valid than mine, I'm simply pointing out that everyones mind is different, everyones way of coping with situations is different

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts. Can people stay ontopic please

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Who is ripping the piss out of her Livia? The discussion is about whether or not this proves there is a God.....that's what everyone in here was doing

Originally Posted by Niamh.

lol Imagine Richard Dawkins appearing to her, "sorry love just here to confirm that there is no God"

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the hanky....




with image...

Originally Posted by lostalex

No, his message was that religion (the jewish religion specifically) was wrong, but his message that religion was wrong was totally lost on the IDIOTS in this world, instead they just made him INTO a religion.

Stupid people will always find a way to be more stupid.

It's the same as any thread about religion. The sniggering and the lols that insinuate people who don't believe in God are somehow superior because people who DO believe are obviously gullible and not quite so intelligent. There's Alex calling people stupid and "idiots"... honestly, it wears me out.

I don't care whether you believe in God or not, or whether Trumpet or anyone else doesn't believe but I feel people who do believe have to constantly defend themselves from the ridicule.

The truth is, I have as much evidence that God exists as anyone on here has of him not existing - ie: none.

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Deleted some posts. Can people stay ontopic please

Amen to that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Amen to that.

As if to illustrate my point.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I did not intend this to be a discussion of whether this proves there is a God Niamh - I posed the question why would an atheist see a vision of Jesus as opposed to other deities or even inspirational figures from her life.

Up to now, though you have certainly not agreed with me, you've given your view that it is a 'coping mechanism' which helped her in her lowest hour, which I do not agree with, but is a very valid view, and the type of response I was looking forward to.

I did not intend this to be about God, and didn't invite illogical rants or piss taking - neither of which I'm accusing you of, but which have appeared just the same.

Well, I took your question to imply that if a rational, grounded athiest was shown a vision of Jesus, does this prove that there is a God but whatever I think my posts applied to the topic anyway