[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Dollface

I agree with pretty much everything Livia said (especially the "you have no more proof that God doesn't exist than i have that he does) so true.

I watched the documentary about Stephanie Slater, really horrible what she went through.
My uncle (who sadly is now an angel) was an Atheist, but he saw God whilst he was in hospital with a serious illness. I know peoples minds can play tricks on them when they're in a state of shock or whatever but my uncle really believed he saw God (even though he'd been an Atheist his whole life) and i believe he did too.

Aw that is lovely, imo "strange" things happen before crossover If we discovered more we would know that they arent strange, just a change of lifestyle.

[Kizzy]

I think the near death experiences are explained away too easily, pain relief, lack of oxygen and disassociation for example.
We will always try to apply logic to experiences I suppose
It's a shame as I'm a believer in so much as I think we've forgotten more than we'll probably ever know.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Actually there is more evidence of extra terrestrial life than there is of God, although to be honest any form of alien life could be perceived as a God.

If you do a bit of research you will find hundreds of thousands of cases of reported sightings of unidentified craft, taken together with credible witness reports from Military personnel and as a large proportion of these sightings are captured on photographs, film and video together with radar sightings and anomalous physical data, this constitutes way more evidence than simply

I believe therefore it's real...????

Maybe we were actually created by an advanced Alien life form millions of years ago.



Simple fact is we haven't got a bloody clue who we are or where we came from and what our purpose is.....




.

I think your maybe is a possible maybe, then we have the question of where did they come from and so it goes on and on and on, we are only a tiny spec of the total truth.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think the near death experiences are explained away too easily, pain relief, lack of oxygen and disassociation for example.
We will always try to apply logic to experiences I suppose
It's a shame as I'm a believer in so much as I think we've forgotten more than we'll probably ever know.

I agree Kizzy....

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think the near death experiences are explained away too easily, pain relief, lack of oxygen and disassociation for example.
We will always try to apply logic to experiences I suppose
It's a shame as I'm a believer in so much as I think we've forgotten more than we'll probably ever know.

yes, damn logic and the truth, we want anecdotal tales that make people mysterious and interesting...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes, damn logic and the truth, we want anecdotal tales that make people mysterious and interesting...

You can't lump these two together as in this instance the truth doesn't follow logic as it can't be proven.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You can't lump these two together as in this instance the truth doesn't follow logic as it can't be proven.

The trouble is we have to experience, it then becomes logic within our own being. My first experience was as a child at the dentist. I saw myself in the chair, I hovered above it and watched myself having a tooth pulled. I didnt realise what it was at the age of 5 but have learnt a lot since.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I would genuinely welcome other FM’s thoughts and responses on this, but would make an appeal for those responses to be civil, rational, and relevant, so that this – potentially, fascinating and thought-provoking - thread is not prematurely ‘closed’ by the moderators because it has descended into the usual, abuse riddled, illogical melee, which all topics on religion seem to cause on here. So here goes:

On the 22nd of January 1992, Estate Agent Stephanie Slater was abducted by Michael Samms. During her captivity, she was raped, then blindfolded, had her feet and hands shackled, and forced into a laid down modified 'wheelie bin' which was far too small to accommodate her. She was suffering so much physical pain, in addition to her psychological and emotional trauma that she vainly tried to kill herself in that pitch-black prison by forcing her mouth and nose into a cloth and suffocating herself.

In the depths of her despair, and despite the blindfold and darkness, Stephanie 'saw' a bright light. In this light Jesus Christ appeared to her. After this ‘vision’, Stephanie said that she felt strangely 'at peace' and found the resolve to live through her ordeal.

Now, the strange thing is; that Stephanie was always an atheist prior to this, and cannot understand why it was Christ who appeared to her.

Incidentally, anyone who knows Stephanie Slater - or who has read her articles, or watched the various documentaries in which she features - knows that she is a thoroughly grounded, highly intelligent and rational woman not given to hysterics, hallucinations or delusions. She does however, now believe in God.

There are diverse logical reasons why so many people believe in God (whichever God that may be) but I just wonder why it wasn't Richard Dawkins who appeared to her.

...hmmmm, well..you're asking for 'explanations'..?....why that would be...?...but isn't that the thing though...not everything can be explained...there are 'explanations' that would make perfect sense, that would kind of 'box it up' type thing and I could think of some myself but I guess the fact is that she believed she saw Jesus, she's convinced of that and so therefore she did...she saw the vision that she believed to be Jesus ..why..?...who knows, really..?...maybe it's what she needed to see to help her survive but I really don't know and I doubt that she does either....it's just one of those 'unexplained' things I guess....we could rationalise and explain but it still wouldn't necessarily be the 'answer'.....wouldn't it be boring having 'answers' to everything anyway....much more interesting to have 'mysteries'....

[Jules2]

Morning all, Kirk did you get any answers to your OP, what would you like to think is the answer?

One thing seems for certain, it helped her and it has put her onto a different level of thought, hopefully this will help her to get over the turmoil of such a horrible event.

Have you had a look at the Deep Sea Scrolls at all, have to admit that it has explained at least three things for me, one of which I have had to change my original thought. I believe for myself it has been to easy to compare things to this days rules and regulations but I have to accept that it was not the same then. Consequently some of the so called miracles are explained, if the scrolls are fact. They have been scientifically processed for the age and material around at that time.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jules2

Morning all, Kirk did you get any answers to your OP, what would you like to think is the answer?

One thing seems for certain, it helped her and it has put her onto a different level of thought, hopefully this will help her to get over the turmoil of such a horrible event.

Have you had a look at the Deep Sea Scrolls at all, have to admit that it has explained at least three things for me, one of which I have had to change my original thought. I believe for myself it has been to easy to compare things to this days rules and regulations but I have to accept that it was not the same then. Consequently some of the so called miracles are explained, if the scrolls are fact. They have been scientifically processed for the age and material around at that time.

Morning Jules,

I reproduce my answer to LT Jules to save duplication:

It was not a rhetorical question - I genuinely do not know why. I have my own ideas - theory if you will - obviously biased and based upon my faith, but I don't know.

I wanted to discover other viewpoints for the very reason that I wasn't sure.

I would like to think that because she was an atheist and not a religious person (according to her own testimony in articles I have read, and in a documentary which someone on here mentioned) that Christ did actually appear to her.

I am not concerned that the vision she actually saw was an image -- a medieval artists impression -- of the 'Veronica Cloth', because no one can look upon the countenance of God, and if she did 'perceive' a vision of Christ, then her mind would project the image of Christ which she could identify.

Incidentally, the image of Christ - long hair and bearded - on that particular painting, is notable, because it is the sterotypical image that most artists depicted once the image on the Shroud of Turin had become known. Before then, depictions of Christ in art were diverse and generic.

As to the Dead Sea Scrolls, yes, I have always been interested in them, and have a couple of books which I've had for years and have also researched them - as you have Jules.

I have no reason to doubt the scrolls authenticity, or the Copper Scrolls.

Do your ideas on the connection between the Scrolls and Christ come from reading the works of Edmund Wilson Jules?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

And atheism is a false sense of superiority.

actually atheism says that we are all small insignificant creatures, How is that arrogant? That's the exact opposite of arrogance or superiority.

Thinking there is a God that loves you and makes you special and gives you special powers by praying to him is arrogant and gives YOU the faLSe sense of superiority,.

[lostalex]

believing in God is no different than believing in Zeus or Ganesh or any of the thousands of Gods that came before God. How can any religious person not see that?

Christians think believing that God is a blue elephant with 8 arms is ridiculous, but believing in Jesus is equally as silly.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lostalex

believing in God is no different than believing in Zeus or Ganesh or any of the thousands of Gods that came before God. How can any religious person not see that?

Christians think believing that God is a blue elephant with 8 arms is ridiculous, but believing in Jesus is equally as silly.

No Alex, 'blue elephants with 8 arms ' do not exist and never have, whereas Jesus did exist.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No Alex, 'blue elephants with 8 arms ' do not exist and never have, whereas Jesus did exist.

yes, we all know that con artists exist, but a son of God that could perform miracles has never existed. Jesus the con artist man existed, but Jesus the miracle worker, that could walk on water, turn water in wine, heal the sick with his touch, forgive humanity for all it's sins....is just as silly as the blue elephant with 8 arms.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No Alex, 'blue elephants with 8 arms ' do not exist and never have, whereas Jesus did exist.

whoooah there

Can you prove that they dont exist? You seem so certain..

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

whoooah there

Can you prove that they dont exist? You seem so certain..

eggasactly. Ganesh works in mysterious ways, how dare you ask him to show himself. just because you haven't seen a blue elephant with 8 arms personally doesn't mean that he doesn't exist!

That's exactly the same logic christians use whenever you ask them for any evidence.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by lostalex

eggasactly. Ganesh works in mysterious ways, how dare you ask him to show himself. just because you haven't seen a blue elephant with 8 arms personally doesn't mean that he doesn't exist!

Its about having faith it does exist, how dare people attack my faith

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Its about having faith it does exist, how dare people attack my faith

How VERY dare they!

[Christmas Dynasnow]

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

whoooah there

Can you prove that they dont exist? You seem so certain..

Well, LT - I've forensically searched every written text I can, and examined the fossil records in minute detail during the last 2 minutes, and I can't find any whisker of a hint that they existed. I've even - swear on Jihadi John's life - just bought a copy of the '8 Armed Blue Elephants Guide For Dummies' and still cannot find any conclusive proof.

Unlike Christ's existence which is well documented within the Bible and in dozens of extraneous documents. But you know that anyway from previous little 'tete a tetes'.

God Bless LT.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well, LT - I've forensically searched every written text I can, and examined the fossil records in minute detail during the last 2 minutes, and I can't find any whisker of a hint that they existed. I've even - swear on Jihadi John's life - just bought a copy of the '8 Armed Blue Elephants Guide For Dummies' and still cannot find any conclusive proof.

Unlike Christ's existence which is well documented within the Bible and in dozens of extraneous documents. But you know that anyway from previous little 'tete a tetes'.

God Bless LT.

What you really mean is that you are agnostic to it.

I am aware of the tenuous mentions of a man called Jesus in other places like Josephus but all they tell me is that there may have been a bloke kicking around at that time who was being hailed as a messiah - but a cursory glance at the life of Brian will tell you that was fairly common at that time and no document supports the claims made in the bible books.

I would not trust any information coming from the middle east in 2014 never mind back in biblical times

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lostalex

eggasactly. Ganesh works in mysterious ways, how dare you ask him to show himself. just because you haven't seen a blue elephant with 8 arms personally doesn't mean that he doesn't exist!

That's exactly the same logic christians use whenever you ask them for any evidence.

Nothing of the sort Alex - and we're going down the same 'Avenue Of Silliness' which these threads always lead down, no matter how well meaning they start off.

I could fill 20 pages of thread on here with evidence for - not only Jesus's existence - but that he was the Christ. Evidence not Proof - no one can prove the existence of God no more than anyone can prove God's non existence.

I could fill 20 pages, but I'm not. I cannot do with the hassle of deliberately nonsensical responses and unnecessary ridicule.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well, LT - I've forensically searched every written text I can, and examined the fossil records in minute detail during the last 2 minutes, and I can't find any whisker of a hint that they existed. I've even - swear on Jihadi John's life - just bought a copy of the '8 Armed Blue Elephants Guide For Dummies' and still cannot find any conclusive proof.

Unlike Christ's existence which is well documented within the Bible and in dozens of extraneous documents. But you know that anyway from previous little 'tete a tetes'.

God Bless LT.

there is evidence that the man existed, but there is ZERO evidence that he was God or performed any miracles. right?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

and if you are asking god to bless me then state which one as there are hundreds and hundreds of man made gods around at the moment

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

and if you are asking god to bless me then state which one as there are hundreds and hundreds of man made gods around at the moment

I'm - once again - being friendly to you, and merely asking whichever God YOU believe in to bless you.