[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Hi Kirklancaster, I just want to say although I don't always agree with you I did really enjoy your post,a lot of info there and I was pleased to hear of your role during the Miners strike times too.

I think to be fair on a couple of things.
Labour will find it hard to win over great numbers after the problems at the end of the last Labour govt.
In fact it is hard for any party after going out of office to be voted back after only one term in opposition because that trust again is withheld,even though the mood has softened.
I too would have had no time for Tony Blair,which is why I am pleased with the direction Ed Miliband is taking labour now overall, not totally.

However, I do not think it is only the left who push forward their agenda as to the EU and immigration, I think in fact, the right, from this govt. those with power and influence and then the media particularly give a totally distorted presentation of the EU and immigration with their prejudiced agenda.
So much so,that I believe for the ordinary voter, there will be no chance at all of a straightforward informative and fair debate possible as to the EU and immigration.

I also think this present disaster of a PM with his procrastination as to the EU and immigration and indeed failure as to all his targets for immigration are dangerous for the UK.
This man has talked for the last 2+ years as to the EU and settling the issue.
He has let it ride for that time and then would take a further 2+ years to do some re-negotiations,(if we ever hear what they are),or even if he himself even knows what he will re-negotiate anyway.
Then he talks of a referendum sometime by the end of his next 3rd year of govt.

He talks a lot but does nothing in the main and the uncertainty of all that time as to our future in the EU and as to immigration,all that probably brings to the UK is really big confusion and instability in my view.

I am not a leftie by the way,I hate the term.
I was a strong Conservative from a Conservative voting background but whereas you turned to the Conservatives from your experiences of the past.
I have from all I have seen over these last few years,as to the persecution and heartlessness showed to the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable in the UK by this govt;I have turned,heavily too,from the Conservatives.

I do not think anyone vulnerable in the 21st century in a so called decent society should be brought down the way this govt. has done so as to them over the last near 5 years now.
There is nothing at all for those who are vulnerable in the present Conservative party led by David Cameron,a man who is now obsessed almost in following the agenda laid out by UKIP to win votes.

Since this thread is about UKIP really,therein lies another question and answer for me.
Those most vulnerable in the UK have no hope of anything better, or indeed anything at all from UKIP, so despite the smiles and joviality from Nigel Farage,he is someone I would likely trust less than David Cameron and that really isn't saying anything from me as to either of them.

I do love your posts however and respect your views.

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph. the nhs is better under this tory government, despite the disastrous economy labour left. labour are still obsessed with unions , quangos and cover ups. thats exactly what happened to the nhs and the disgraceful events of stafford hospital must NEVER EVER be forgotten. labour would never truly investigate their own unions and expose them. too many votes. so you end up with russian style cover ups. minus the plutonium, but the end results are just as deadly. its interesting to note under new labour as the government jobs/state grew out of control yet again and the waste did too....yet fewer people were sacked and fewer people were employed in investigating mistakes or with the ombudsman which fell apart

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people. the economy is miles stronger under the tories which in turn has put an extra million into work and brought the unemployment rate down to its lowest level in 6 years and growth at a record high. yes the figures are always doctored but measured on the same basis as under new labout, the tories have done infinitely better on the economy already.

however.....manufacturing industrial jobs should be top priority....better paid jobs should be a top priority. increasing minimum wage would be a big mistake as it will raise unemployment and inflation. the working tax credits system shouldbe simplified to encourage more to work and it should also be simplified with regards to housing benefits so people dont feel the fear of losing their rented homes

new labour created division, they festered the poltics of envy....they created the fakest shallowest society weve ever seen, with endless petty new laws invading every civil liberty...to such an extent that free speech no longer exists, conversation is bannned...anyone who even questions the prevailing thinking is cast out as a racist a sexist or bigot...whata dreadfully unhealthy state of mind...whilst all this politically correct drivel carried on unabataed by substandard politicians and journalists too scared to dare question it all......... we were preaching endlessly on minute petty political cirrect matters on race and religion..meanwhile we were bombing the hell out of these very same cultures and religions overseas? .a society was created purely about image and spin and buzzwords...as long as you were agood person on paper and no liability fell on your lap then all is fine...

actually being a good person was irrelevant, in fact it became frowned upon as strange, maverick and most such people got marginalized or ostracized, such as tony benn for example...mocked by new labour and their spin doctors as a dinasaur ...dinosaur my ass? he was a genuine and greta man who dared speak from the heart eloquently, decently and intelligently...beneath the expensive waste and gimmicks, vanity projects and illegal wars. I believe the last government was the worst in british history. the rich poor divide became wider than since the days of charles dickens. society became far far more broken up than even under thatcherism and whatever was left was broken up and handed to europe and the fragmented farce of devolution abnd endless more layers of burocracy, waste, civil service.... new labour totally corrupted britain from within

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people.

This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you are getting this from tbh. It has been proved 100x over that the work capability assessment are unfit for purpose and are not weeding out the fraud, instead they are punishing genuine disabled people. They were unfit under labour (who I believe, incidentally brought in ATOS to begin with) and the current government made it even harder to pass the ridiculous test. Doctors are against it.

When people die days after being pronounced 'fit for work', when people in constant pain recieve '0 points' and are forced to go on JSA, people with the mental age of children are apparently fine top work...come on. You know this isnt right. There are literally thousands of stories about people who are disabled being told they are not by ATOS.

Disabled people are being royally screwed over. Also, the majority have had benefits decreased, not increased, with the introduction of PIP instead of DLA...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you are getting this from tbh. It has been proved 100x over that the work capability assessment are unfit for purpose and are not weeding out the fraud, instead they are punishing genuine disabled people. They were unfit under labour (who I believe, incidentally brought in ATOS to begin with) and the current government made it even harder to pass the ridiculous test. Doctors are against it.

When people die days after being pronounced 'fit for work', when people in constant pain recieve '0 points' and are forced to go on JSA, people with the mental age of children are apparently fine top work...come on. You know this isnt right. There are literally thousands of stories about people who are disabled being told they are not by ATOS.

Disabled people are being royally screwed over. Also, the majority have had benefits decreased, not increased, with the introduction of PIP instead of DLA...

I actually have to agree with you here Vicky.

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently, and that these scavengers need their benefits stopping as soon as possible and made to repay those that they have received (or imprisoned).

Unfortunately for the tax-payer, every government initiative to catch out these fraudsters and strip away their benefits is – as you so rightly say – hitting the wrong targets, and genuine people who need financial help are unjustly having their benefits stopped, whilst the fraudsters breeze through the process with benefits intact.

This WCA test is actually a reincarnation of ‘The All Work’ test introduced in 1994 by John Major’s Conservative Government, and then - just as now – this test proved farcical and impotent, failed to strip fraudsters of benefits, but succeeded in stopping the benefits of genuine claimants.

Genuine claimants are – for the most part – law abiding and passive, and usually confused by, and intimidated by ’officialdom’, whilst fraudulent claimants are usually ‘street-wide’, ‘active’, very, very, devious, and ‘know the ropes’ when dealing with officialdom. It follows, therefore, that ‘soft’ targets are always the easiest targets.

At the time, I personally helped 8 people I knew to appeal when they had their benefits stopped after being wrongly found capable of work as a result of this test. I filled in their forms for them and even wrote what amounted to lengthy and scathing critiques of the ‘All Work Test’, and I am pleased to say that all 8 had their appeals allowed and their benefits reinstated as a result.

Below is an actual excerpt from one such appeal:

Somewhere in the UK, lying in bed is a man who has been paralysed for 20 years. Only able to move his eyes, this man was once was the recipient of national sympathy, but is now the object of universal hatred and scorn.

Why? Because under the rulings of the government’s recently introduced ‘All Work Test', the man has now been exposed as a work-shy malingerer and scrounger who has been in receipt of two decades of benefits when he could have been working.

A government spokesman yesterday confirmed that 47 year old Arthur Scrimsdyke had his entitlement to benefits removed because there was a job available to him which he had refused. When pressed for further details, the spokesman said;

“Well, ’The Society of Ugly Neglected Fishwives’ in Grimsby is advertising for a man – any man - to wink at them for 40 hours a week. Damn good pay at Ł1.20 per hour and a bonus if both eyes are used to wink with.”

The spokesman added that the controversial new WCA test has seen other scroungers lose their benefits nationwide: “The government is very proud that the new test is working. Thousands of epileptics have been found work; some have accepted jobs in Chinese laundries – a jolly well cushy number as well, if you ask me – standing by huge vats of dirty clothes all day and only being thrown in once a seizure starts. All that bally threshing and flailing of limbs soon has the clothes clean.”

Sometimes sarcasm and ridicule are powerful weapons.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I actually have to agree with you here Vicky.

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently

Are you joking?

[Niall]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Based upon my own personal knowledge, I will be controversial and state that around 50% of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudently

I'm side-eyeing so hard I think my eyes are about to fall out the sides of my head

But yes go ahead lets blame the poor for the faults of this country. Such a spurious claim obviously ignores other places where money is lost but y'know, poor people. They're the real ****ers sending this country to the dogs aren't they? Not the rich bankers and corporate executives pillaging this nation for all its worth, huh?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niall

I'm side-eyeing so hard I think my eyes are about to fall out the sides of my head

But yes go ahead lets blame the poor for the faults of this country. Such a spurious claim obviously ignores other places where money is lost but y'know, poor people. They're the real ****ers sending this country to the dogs aren't they? Not the rich bankers and corporate executives pillaging this nation for all its worth, huh?

Well, when you attend the doctor's to have your eyes put back into their orbits Niall, ask him to check your vision, your sensory perception, and your cognitive processes, because if you can read my post then misconstrue what I wrote to the extent that you conclude that my 'claim; ' is 'spurious' and that I am 'blaming the poor' in any way at all, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am defending the poor and the needy, and condemning the fraudulent and greedy. And what is more; I know that my command of the English language is sufficient that only the prejudiced, politically blinkered can fail to understand what I am writing.

Your response is so, so, typical of Left Wing socialists, who are so very bitter and angry at the world because of their own personal issues – often subconscious and deeply buried – that they are in a perpetually defensive mode, coiled, tense, waiting to pounce aggressively and irrationally, on any one who they feel threatened by, or whose views they perceive, or wrongly perceive as not identically fitting in with their own skewed ideologies.

There is no fault in what I write, only in your perception, and you really need to stand back and try to approach matters with more rational detachment.

Passion is a worthy characteristic but without control it can become the blind hatred of extremism.

Irrationally destroying the whole of something because parts of the whole may be imperfect, without any insight of what to replace it with, is just anarchy.

And yet, this is exactly the Left Wing mentality; ‘Bosses are rich, Bosses are greedy, employees are poor. Business is just exploitation of the poor downtrodden workers – destroy Capitalism.

When I was an employer – albeit it a very modest one – I took out huge loans, re-mortgaged my home and worked 16 hour days for 7 days a week every week for years. I sacrificed time with my family and only took one holiday in 15 years. I never exploited anyone, and in total, 87 people – my family, and my employees and their families – were wholly reliant on me.

I was not unique – hundreds of thousands of SME’s are exactly the same, then there are the Alan Sugars, the Richard Bransons.

We need bosses. We need Capitalism.

Capitalism is an apple tree – everyone relies on its crop. If the way in which the apples are distributed is unfair, unjust, then chopping the tree down through blind anger and hatred is not the answer.

When I was a single but engaged young man and saving for a deposit and mortgage on my first home, I was employed at a large Rubber Manufacturing company, and I used to work all the overtime I could get including Saturdays and Sundays and regular ‘double shifts’. I worked on a red hot injection moulding press which made hundreds of rubber rings in each ‘pressing’. We were on a bonus scheme and I worked that hard that I actually regularly doubled my gross weekly wage.

When it came to net pay however, I actually took home far less than a really lazy quite obese guy on the next press who never even achieved his basic output targets, and never ever worked even one hour of overtime.

Why? He had six children and was married, whereas I was single.

Was it fair that I should ‘subsidise’ his children? No, it wasn't. Was it my fault that he did not exercise a degree of planning before breeding offspring he could not afford to sustain? No, it wasn't.

Did I want to ‘tear down the system? No, I didn't. Did I stop working in angry disgust and throw on the dole? No, I didn't.

Left Wing Extremist’s once again missed the point when they spewed irrational bile in protests against private healthcare schemes like B.U.P.A.

If people in a democracy choose to use their own money – whether rich or relatively poor – to invest in such healthcare, then why is it wrong?

There are no disadvantages to society or the State, only massive benefits.

It relieves the untenable pressure on our underfunded overloaded NHS, thereby enabling what Spartan budget it does have, to be better utilised, and does not cost the tax payer one penny.

It provides employment for Doctors and Nurses and thousands of auxiliary and administration staff who would still not be employed in the NHS even if no private healthcare schemes existed, because the gifted and highly qualified among them would migrate taking their skills with them, and the others would – in all probability – be on benefits, thereby costing the tax payer yet more money.

On immigration, Left Wingers allow their irrational extremism to cloud their judgement. The current ‘Open Border’ policy is an unmitigated disaster for this country.

Left Wingers are the most vociferous in their cries that our Benefits system; our schools, our NHS, Police, Ambulance, Fire services, and our highways are crumbling through lack of funding, in addition to the fact that we have a growing housing crisis.

Yet: whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘immigration’ – an irrefutable contributory factor to the overloading of the above services - Left Wing Extremists pounce on them and aggressively and unjustly denounce them as ‘Racist’.

The truth is that Left Wing Extremists are not only bigoted, but also seemingly unversed in even the most rudimentary of mathematics:

The more mouths there are to feed from a pie, then the more slices that pie has to be cut up into. The more slices a pie is cut up into, then the tinier each slice becomes. When the number of mouths keeps increasing and the pie dimensions remain static, then not every mouth can be fed because there is no pie left.

Yet; the less mouths that there are to feed from a pie – the larger a slice of pie there is for those who do feed from it. Simple really isn't it?

So can we then also understand; that the more people which flood into a tiny island of static area, then the more overcrowded that tiny island becomes?

Communism is great theoretically; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” but history has taught us that it does not work.

So what happens when the ‘Public Purse’ is empty because expenditure continues to outweigh income despite the ever increasing burden on the poor British taxpayer via increased direct taxation and ever more devious indirect stealth taxes?

What happens when we cannot borrow any more money to bail out the cost of the governments continued ineptitude, seeing as how our National Debt already stands at over Ł1.5 trillion?

I have seen Left Wingers on here point out that; “The UK is not overcrowded, there are plenty of open spaces where people could live” – or some other equally as stupid comment.

What about the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure which is needed to urbanise those ‘open spaces’?

And where are these ‘open spaces’? – The Lake District? The Yorkshire Moors? The New Forest? Snowdonia?

There are economic and geographical reasons why towns and cities have evolved, and even if we had the funds to urbanise certain open space areas – which we don’t – sustaining communities there would be economically impossible.

I have also seen Left Wingers on here state how immigrants work and pay taxes as well as the indigenous British. Well yes – some of them do, and a lot of them don’t, and when the fiscal books are honestly balanced, the cost to this country of unfettered immigration is far, far, greater than any benefits.

And so far we have not covered the other negative impact of immigration – those irreversible changes to our own culture, religions, and traditions. It is also no trivial fact that the great majority of immigrants to this country are Muslim.

One final example of how Left Wing Extremist thinking is skewed and dangerous, is Grammar Schools.

The 11 plus examination was hard, and those pupils who passed it went on to Grammar Schools. This included kids from the most deprived and poorest of backgrounds - I know, because I was one.

The standards of discipline, and teaching in Grammar Schools was of the highest order, and the success rates of pupils gaining GCE’s were extremely high. Most pupils went onto university and graduated to become leaders in their fields.

Grammar schools had badges on uniforms, satchels, different ‘Houses’ to which the pupils were allocated to, and whose individual colours were reflected in the stripes of the school tie. The teachers and headmasters wore ‘caps and gowns’, and the school rugby fields and certain other areas were ‘out of bounds’ at break and dinner times.

Method and Order were the keywords. ‘Hard work breeds success’ was the sentiment.

Of course, the Left Wing Extremists at the time soon saw the 11 plus as ‘demeaning’ to less intelligent or clever kids and Grammar schools as ‘unacceptable examples of selective education’ and ‘entrenched educational elitism’.

Tony Crosland – an arrogant, moron of a lefty, and the Education Secretary in the 1964 Labour Government – vowed that; “If it’s the last thing I do, I’m going to destroy every fecking grammar school in England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”

And he did, because, although over a hundred did survive, their dynamics were forever adversely changed.

So let’s look at the facts; In accordance with Lefty Labour wishes, Grammar schools became Comprehensive Schools.

Out went uniforms which were deemed by the loonie Left to be elitist and unfair to poorer families who would struggle to fund such clothing.

Well, again from direct experience, let me tell you the truth.

My mother did struggle to buy my Grammar school uniform, but she did manage it by making sacrifices elsewhere, and once I had my uniform on - cap, satchel and all – this poverty stricken kid from the crumbling brick terrace streets was exactly the same as his posh schoolmates who were Doctor’s or Teacher’s sons from private semi’s and detached houses.

Just as a thick blanket of snow covers the most untidy gravel pit of a garden as equally as the most manicured of flower bordered striped lawns, uniforms were the great equaliser.

In place of uniforms came a ‘free dress’ code – the latest in ice blue jeans, leather jackets, winkle-picker shoes or Cuban heel boots. You name it the new kids who hadn’t passed the 11 plus, and the posh kids who had, wore them. But not the really poor kids like me. My mum couldn’t afford such ‘modern’ clothing, so I was truly shamed and embarrassed going to school in my shabby ‘civvies’ when most of the other kids were so ‘coolly’ attired.

So much for ‘elitist’ and ‘unfair to poorer kids’ – the effect of misconstrued Loonie Left thinking was the diametric opposite of their intent.

So what of educational standards?

Loonie Left ideology of ‘one school for all irrespective of academic ability’ was based on a presumption that the ‘brighter kids would pull the dimmer kids up – elevate them.

Of course, the opposite is true, because it is akin to throwing a few rotten apples into a barrel of healthy fruit in the belief that the good fruit will restore the bad. (FFS please let’s make it absolutely clear – even to blinkered Lefties – that I am not calling non-academic school kids ‘bad apples’, it is an analogy.)

And yes; general standards plummeted and as they did, so did educational standards.

My own Grammar school was always in the top 6 schools in the country, but as a Comprehensive it continued to plummet until – long after I had left – it was consistently in the bottom 5.

All a crying shame.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well, when you attend the doctor's to have your eyes put back into their orbits Niall, ask him to check your vision, your sensory perception, and your cognitive processes, because if you can read my post then misconstrue what I wrote to the extent that you conclude that my 'claim; ' is 'spurious' and that I am 'blaming the poor' in any way at all, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am defending the poor and the needy, and condemning the fraudulent and greedy. And what is more; I know that my command of the English language is sufficient that only the prejudiced, politically blinkered can fail to understand what I am writing.

Your response is so, so, typical of Left Wing socialists, who are so very bitter and angry at the world because of their own personal issues – often subconscious and deeply buried – that they are in a perpetually defensive mode, coiled, tense, waiting to pounce aggressively and irrationally, on any one who they feel threatened by, or whose views they perceive, or wrongly perceive as not identically fitting in with their own skewed ideologies.

There is no fault in what I write, only in your perception, and you really need to stand back and try to approach matters with more rational detachment.

Passion is a worthy characteristic but without control it can become the blind hatred of extremism.

Irrationally destroying the whole of something because parts of the whole may be imperfect, without any insight of what to replace it with, is just anarchy.

And yet, this is exactly the Left Wing mentality; ‘Bosses are rich, Bosses are greedy, employees are poor. Business is just exploitation of the poor downtrodden workers – destroy Capitalism.

When I was an employer – albeit it a very modest one – I took out huge loans, re-mortgaged my home and worked 16 hour days for 7 days a week every week for years. I sacrificed time with my family and only took one holiday in 15 years. I never exploited anyone, and in total, 87 people – my family, and my employees and their families – were wholly reliant on me.

I was not unique – hundreds of thousands of SME’s are exactly the same, then there are the Alan Sugars, the Richard Bransons.

We need bosses. We need Capitalism.

Capitalism is an apple tree – everyone relies on its crop. If the way in which the apples are distributed is unfair, unjust, then chopping the tree down through blind anger and hatred is not the answer.

When I was a single but engaged young man and saving for a deposit and mortgage on my first home, I was employed at a large Rubber Manufacturing company, and I used to work all the overtime I could get including Saturdays and Sundays and regular ‘double shifts’. I worked on a red hot injection moulding press which made hundreds of rubber rings in each ‘pressing’. We were on a bonus scheme and I worked that hard that I actually regularly doubled my gross weekly wage.

When it came to net pay however, I actually took home far less than a really lazy quite obese guy on the next press who never even achieved his basic output targets, and never ever worked even one hour of overtime.

Why? He had six children and was married, whereas I was single.

Was it fair that I should ‘subsidise’ his children? No, it wasn't. Was it my fault that he did not exercise a degree of planning before breeding offspring he could not afford to sustain? No, it wasn't.

Did I want to ‘tear down the system? No, I didn't. Did I stop working in angry disgust and throw on the dole? No, I didn't.

Left Wing Extremist’s once again missed the point when they spewed irrational bile in protests against private healthcare schemes like B.U.P.A.

If people in a democracy choose to use their own money – whether rich or relatively poor – to invest in such healthcare, then why is it wrong?

There are no disadvantages to society or the State, only massive benefits.

It relieves the untenable pressure on our underfunded overloaded NHS, thereby enabling what Spartan budget it does have, to be better utilised, and does not cost the tax payer one penny.

It provides employment for Doctors and Nurses and thousands of auxiliary and administration staff who would still not be employed in the NHS even if no private healthcare schemes existed, because the gifted and highly qualified among them would migrate taking their skills with them, and the others would – in all probability – be on benefits, thereby costing the tax payer yet more money.

On immigration, Left Wingers allow their irrational extremism to cloud their judgement. The current ‘Open Border’ policy is an unmitigated disaster for this country.

Left Wingers are the most vociferous in their cries that our Benefits system; our schools, our NHS, Police, Ambulance, Fire services, and our highways are crumbling through lack of funding, in addition to the fact that we have a growing housing crisis.

Yet: whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘immigration’ – an irrefutable contributory factor to the overloading of the above services - Left Wing Extremists pounce on them and aggressively and unjustly denounce them as ‘Racist’.

The truth is that Left Wing Extremists are not only bigoted, but also seemingly unversed in even the most rudimentary of mathematics:

The more mouths there are to feed from a pie, then the more slices that pie has to be cut up into. The more slices a pie is cut up into, then the tinier each slice becomes. When the number of mouths keeps increasing and the pie dimensions remain static, then not every mouth can be fed because there is no pie left.

Yet; the less mouths that there are to feed from a pie – the larger a slice of pie there is for those who do feed from it. Simple really isn't it?

So can we then also understand; that the more people which flood into a tiny island of static area, then the more overcrowded that tiny island becomes?

Communism is great theoretically; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” but history has taught us that it does not work.

So what happens when the ‘Public Purse’ is empty because expenditure continues to outweigh income despite the ever increasing burden on the poor British taxpayer via increased direct taxation and ever more devious indirect stealth taxes?

What happens when we cannot borrow any more money to bail out the cost of the governments continued ineptitude, seeing as how our National Debt already stands at over Ł1.5 trillion?

I have seen Left Wingers on here point out that; “The UK is not overcrowded, there are plenty of open spaces where people could live” – or some other equally as stupid comment.

What about the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure which is needed to urbanise those ‘open spaces’?

And where are these ‘open spaces’? – The Lake District? The Yorkshire Moors? The New Forest? Snowdonia?

There are economic and geographical reasons why towns and cities have evolved, and even if we had the funds to urbanise certain open space areas – which we don’t – sustaining communities there would be economically impossible.

I have also seen Left Wingers on here state how immigrants work and pay taxes as well as the indigenous British. Well yes – some of them do, and a lot of them don’t, and when the fiscal books are honestly balanced, the cost to this country of unfettered immigration is far, far, greater than any benefits.

And so far we have not covered the other negative impact of immigration – those irreversible changes to our own culture, religions, and traditions. It is also no trivial fact that the great majority of immigrants to this country are Muslim.

One final example of how Left Wing Extremist thinking is skewed and dangerous, is Grammar Schools.

The 11 plus examination was hard, and those pupils who passed it went on to Grammar Schools. This included kids from the most deprived and poorest of backgrounds - I know, because I was one.

The standards of discipline, and teaching in Grammar Schools was of the highest order, and the success rates of pupils gaining GCE’s were extremely high. Most pupils went onto university and graduated to become leaders in their fields.

Grammar schools had badges on uniforms, satchels, different ‘Houses’ to which the pupils were allocated to, and whose individual colours were reflected in the stripes of the school tie. The teachers and headmasters wore ‘caps and gowns’, and the school rugby fields and certain other areas were ‘out of bounds’ at break and dinner times.

Method and Order were the keywords. ‘Hard work breeds success’ was the sentiment.

Of course, the Left Wing Extremists at the time soon saw the 11 plus as ‘demeaning’ to less intelligent or clever kids and Grammar schools as ‘unacceptable examples of selective education’ and ‘entrenched educational elitism’.

Tony Crosland – an arrogant, moron of a lefty, and the Education Secretary in the 1964 Labour Government – vowed that; “If it’s the last thing I do, I’m going to destroy every fecking grammar school in England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”

And he did, because, although over a hundred did survive, their dynamics were forever adversely changed.

So let’s look at the facts; In accordance with Lefty Labour wishes, Grammar schools became Comprehensive Schools.

Out went uniforms which were deemed by the loonie Left to be elitist and unfair to poorer families who would struggle to fund such clothing.

Well, again from direct experience, let me tell you the truth.

My mother did struggle to buy my Grammar school uniform, but she did manage it by making sacrifices elsewhere, and once I had my uniform on - cap, satchel and all – this poverty stricken kid from the crumbling brick terrace streets was exactly the same as his posh schoolmates who were Doctor’s or Teacher’s sons from private semi’s and detached houses.

Just as a thick blanket of snow covers the most untidy gravel pit of a gardens as equally as the most manicured of flower bordered striped lawns, uniforms were the great equaliser.

In place of uniforms came a ‘free dress’ code – the latest in ice blue jeans, leather jackets, winkle-picker shoes or Cuban heel boots. You name it the new kids who hadn’t passed the 11 plus, and the posh kids who had, wore them. But not the really poor kids like me. My mum couldn’t afford such ‘modern’ clothing, so I was truly shamed and embarrassed going to school in my shabby ‘civvies’ when most of the other kids were so ‘coolly’ attired.

So much for ‘elitist’ and ‘unfair to poorer kids’ – the effect of misconstrued Loonie Left thinking was the diametric opposite of their intent.

So what of educational standards?

Loonie Left ideology of ‘one school for all irrespective of academic ability’ was based on a presumption that the ‘brighter kids would pull the dimmer kids up – elevate them.

Of course, the opposite is true, because it is akin to throwing a few rotten apples into a barrel of healthy fruit in the belief that the good fruit will restore the bad. (FFS please let’s make it absolutely clear – even to blinkered Lefties – that I am not calling non-academic school kids ‘bad apples’, it is an analogy.)

And yes; general standards plummeted and as they did, so did educational standards.

My own Grammar school was always in the top 6 schools in the country, but as a Comprehensive it continued to plummet until – long after I had left – it was consistently in the bottom 5.

All a crying shame.

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

For the same reason that anyone who posts opinions which are contrary to yours are immediately challenged by you as wrong. No matter if those opinions are factually based and yours is mere opinion.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

Tony Benn was branded a loony leftie too for wanting to split from the EU,this is actually now the thinking of what is termed the 'right' of those in the political spectrum, re the Conservative party and UKIP.
Well what does that make them now then.

Loonie left and other terms are all that is left when a decent argument is lost and it is only time for insults left to be flung around at those with differing views.

It is the dafter and more sad thing about politics in the UK,that anyone should be branded by anyone or organisation as to being a 'loony' of any sort just for their opinions.
I find the term loony left grossly offensive,I get it sometimes from those I know who disagree with my change of political leanings.
Off here, they get told and are left in no uncertain terms what I think of them too.

However, Kizzy, if it is that caring for a well supported NHS, that wanting to help,support and see in place protection and security for the most vulnerable, sick and disabled.
To see real jobs, not artificial low paid ones and people earning a living wage.
If that is to be deemed as being a loony from the left, well hey,I am happy to be standing up and be counted with that lot.
Far,far better,in my view, than supporting persecution, discrimination, heartlessness and injustice against such people and issues.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph. the nhs is better under this tory government, despite the disastrous economy labour left. labour are still obsessed with unions , quangos and cover ups. thats exactly what happened to the nhs and the disgraceful events of stafford hospital must NEVER EVER be forgotten. labour would never truly investigate their own unions and expose them. too many votes. so you end up with russian style cover ups. minus the plutonium, but the end results are just as deadly. its interesting to note under new labour as the government jobs/state grew out of control yet again and the waste did too....yet fewer people were sacked and fewer people were employed in investigating mistakes or with the ombudsman which fell apart

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people. the economy is miles stronger under the tories which in turn has put an extra million into work and brought the unemployment rate down to its lowest level in 6 years and growth at a record high. yes the figures are always doctored but measured on the same basis as under new labout, the tories have done infinitely better on the economy already.

however.....manufacturing industrial jobs should be top priority....better paid jobs should be a top priority. increasing minimum wage would be a big mistake as it will raise unemployment and inflation. the working tax credits system shouldbe simplified to encourage more to work and it should also be simplified with regards to housing benefits so people dont feel the fear of losing their rented homes

new labour created division, they festered the poltics of envy....they created the fakest shallowest society weve ever seen, with endless petty new laws invading every civil liberty...to such an extent that free speech no longer exists, conversation is bannned...anyone who even questions the prevailing thinking is cast out as a racist a sexist or bigot...whata dreadfully unhealthy state of mind...whilst all this politically correct drivel carried on unabataed by substandard politicians and journalists too scared to dare question it all......... we were preaching endlessly on minute petty political cirrect matters on race and religion..meanwhile we were bombing the hell out of these very same cultures and religions overseas? .a society was created purely about image and spin and buzzwords...as long as you were agood person on paper and no liability fell on your lap then all is fine...

actually being a good person was irrelevant, in fact it became frowned upon as strange, maverick and most such people got marginalized or ostracized, such as tony benn for example...mocked by new labour and their spin doctors as a dinasaur ...dinosaur my ass? he was a genuine and greta man who dared speak from the heart eloquently, decently and intelligently...beneath the expensive waste and gimmicks, vanity projects and illegal wars. I believe the last government was the worst in british history. the rich poor divide became wider than since the days of charles dickens. society became far far more broken up than even under thatcherism and whatever was left was broken up and handed to europe and the fragmented farce of devolution abnd endless more layers of burocracy, waste, civil service.... new labour totally corrupted britain from within

Well it will come as no surprise to say I disagree with most of that, after all we had terrible times and recessions under the previous 18 years of Conservative govt.
All our asssets were sold off to help cover that a little but the disastrous ERM joining fiasco and chaos that followed that were more signs of incompetence from the then Govt too.

I have to however and I am never likely going to change your mind but I need to say this.
The NHS was on its knees in 1997 at the end of the 18 years of Conservative govt.
I have an Uncle who is a Consultant, another who is a GP and 2 cousins who are Doctors in the NHS.I also have cousins employed as Nursing staff and in other care areas of the NHS.

They all say the NHS is in danger under this govt, they hated the reforms that were done without the public support and the clear thing is that the NHS needs regular and good investement and this gov. has no desire to go anywhere near enough to ensure that takes place.

Stafford was a disgrace, as were the deaths of people on trollies alongside wards under the Conservative govt of 1979 to 1997, where wards were closed to save on heating and not having enough Nurses to man them.
There will always be,to be fair, problems across the NHS in some places.

In something as large as the NHS and nationwide, it would be impossible for any govt. to not have some disasters and problems at times.
However, the NHS is in a lot of trouble again now, only 4+ years from these taking power,they carried out costly reforms no one wanted or voted for and that also were not in their manifesto either.
This has caused massive delays, confusion and disillusionment among NHS staff from Consultants to the nursing staff too.

I also take issue with you as to Labour and the Unions. why is it we get Labour and the Unions argument all the time while really big business and the Conservatives are let off unscathed.
Funding has to come from somewhere, the voters and taxpayers would not want to supply the funding for politicial parties so they need it from somewhere,and I see nothing wrong at all with the Unions supporting Labour, there would have never been a Labour party likely without the trade union movement.
Neither do I see anything wrong,with no other means in place, for big business to support and fund the Conservative party.
However, I don't think Labour is obsessed with the Unions at all, from the grumblings of the Union leaders,it is clear that Ed Miliband is not giving them what they want in any shape or form really at present.

In govt. it is rare to see big business turn against a Conservative PM and govt; that is not the case with Labour however from the late 70s.
It was in fact Unions that helped bring down the Labour govt in 1978/9 becasue that Labour Govt. was not doing what they hoped for in the end.
The Unions got next to nothing from Tony Blair's governments so I do refute your claim as to Labour and the Unions now at this time.

Not that I think all that Unions say and want are wrong either,however if Labour was obsessed as you say with the Unions, then Labour would be going much further as to policy and setting out to re-nationalise the energy industry, the water industry and the rail networks too, just to name 3.

Oddly enough, maybe the Unions are more in touch with a large public opinion because I actually believe were labour to at least be looking at taking back into state ownership the energy companies,that would,I think, have votes flying in to support that policy.

As I say I respect your views but I am not what could or should be termed a leftie,I don't call people righties.
I have moved across the political divide myself to be a now Labour supporter, in the hope of social justice, compassion and sensitivity in dealing with the most vulnerable.
I also believe strongly in a supported and nurtured NHS, I have seen no evidence at all of that from this govt. as to the NHS so that's another reason I crossed the political divide.
Not to be a leftie or a rightie or a centrist,just to see some decency come back to govt. policy and I see little in the way of understanding,caring and compassion on the things and people I have come to care about from this heartless govt.

I would like to see too, the unemployment figures with those on zero hours or 16 hour contracts a week added to it,what are the real unemployment figures for those 'not' in full time work,that don't include the zero hours so called employed and the small 16 hour contracts now in operation,especially in supermarkets.
All govts are clever at making statistics say what they want them to say.

As for the disabled getting increases, that is not so,I agree with Vicky above,who makes the points far stronger and better that I could.

Disabled benefits have increased in part but nothing like what they need to to have kept pace with the cost of living rises we have had under this govt for almost 3 tears in a row.
In fact the disabled are worse off now in real terms, as are in fact those workers in part time or zero hours contract work who are having to rely in part on 'further' benefits to help them just keep going.

The figures of unemployment and the employed are all well and good but the realities are, that those at the lowest end of the scale of things, those sick and disabled and unemployed are greatly worse off now than in 2010,even just after that global recession and banking crisis.

A banking crisis by the way that would have still hit everwhere anyway, especially in the UK no matter what govt. was in power, since the Conservatives actually strongly believed the Banking industry should have been 'less regulated' before that crash came.