[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can't see that happening until people start keeping their beliefs out of other people's trunks. Including drumming it into their own children. In which case it will die out, because that's what's keeping it going.

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

You seem to tar all religions with the same brush. My religion doesn't recruit. I was never forced to do anything as a child instead I chose to got to school on Sundays to learn about my own religion and to study Hebrew. I am not alone. It seems hard for you to accept that people with religious beliefs aren't brainwashed just because you yourself don't understand it. I uphold your right to believe nothing and not be criticised. That surely should be a two-way street.

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

the specifics are all that's relevant your post is anti logic exactly what you accuse all religions of

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To me, though, it says a lot that you considered it "your own religion" before learning about it. It was still your cultural identity. Do you think you would have gone to Sunday school to learn about Judaism and learn Hebrew if your parents had been Christians? Or Hindu? Or non-religious? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Either way, you seem to be suggesting that your experiences are uniform for your entire religion, which is demonstrably not true. There is plenty of fundamentalism and enforced religious practice within the Jewish faith, and in all faiths, just as I'm sure there are people with experiences similar to yours in all faiths. So... Yes, I am comfortable considering all religions under one heading for most purposes. The specifics of the belief system are largely irrelevant, and can mainly be summed up as "miscellaneous supernatural stuff".

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

The highlighted bit is a bit of a wild, sweeping generalisation from someone who has no faith and doesn't understand what it means to have faith, so I understand that lumping all faiths together would make perfect sense to you.

Would I have gone to school to learn about Judaism if my parents weren't Jewish...? I take it your own parents weren't exactly church goers and that's where you've picked up your blinkered ideas about faith. For the record, I am culturally and ethnically Jewish.

You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're right, I have no faith. I think I do understand what it means to have faith TO people who have faith... But perhaps it would be prudent to point out that to someone who doesn't have faith it means literally nothing?

Anyway, the second part is incorrect. My mum went to church regularly and my grandmother was a card-carrying God squadder. She was actual friends with the minister and he was constantly at her house - I'd have worried about them if I wasn't 99% certain that the minister was gay (not joking, very VERY camp man).

I also went to church and Sunday School until I was 7 or 8. In fact, if I remember correctly, I realised that God isn't real whilst actually sat at a table at Sunday school. I was doing some sort of maze involving Jesus. It was obscure.

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

You didn't "realise" that God wasn't real. You came to that conclusion because you'd had a chance to find out about it for yourself. And that's fine... I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to assume there's something wrong with you because you don't believe.

It would be a fine thing if non-believers afforded people with faith the same courtesy.

I don't think there's something wrong with people because they believe. People believe whatever they believe for various reasons, by definition a belief isn't a choice.

I think there's something inherently wrong with religion itself.