[Livia]

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

You could always make one though I'm not aware of pledges to wipe Israel off the map coming from any of those countries apart from Iran, and if we accept they did say that it was years ago so there wouldn't be a recent thread about it. The Ahmadinejad era is over in Iran. This is a very current story which is making the news and being discussed worldwide, I don't see the fault in arista starting the thread or any of us posting in it

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You could always make one though I'm not aware of pledges to wipe Israel off the map coming from any of those countries apart from Iran, and if we accept they did say that it was years ago so there wouldn't be a recent thread about it. The Ahmadinejad era is over in Iran. This is a very current story which is making the news and being discussed worldwide, I don't see the fault in arista starting the thread or any of us posting in it

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm not a thread-maker, you might have noticed. And there's very little chance I'd make a thread about Israel knowing what the usual reaction is.

You know where Israel is situated. They have no real friends, a couple of acquaintances they're on nodding terms with, but mostly they have enemies. Hatred and attacks against Jews across the world has increased... and likewise hatred of Israel. And sooner or later we'll get around to blaming the UK for being instrumental in creating the state of Israel in the 40s... when in actual fact, regardless of whether the state had been created or not, nothing would have stopped the Jews returning to Israel.

Aaaanyhoo.... I suppose I see this from a very different angle so I will probably step out at this point.

I don't agree with some of the sentiments in this thread and I have nothing against Israel's right to exist - I appreciate that their whole modern existence has been marred by threats to that. I don't, though, think that it needs to be a straight choice between Israel and Iran, Israel and Palestine, Israel and the Arab world. IMO both sides have put up barriers to conciliation and the hardliners on each side have fed and enabled each other. Both sides should appreciate that it can't be sustainable for regional neighbours to constantly be holding hostile positions against each other. Iran could have their grievances as well. While Israel may feel surrounded they are a nuclear armed state with the backing of (arguably) the most powerful country on the planet. Iran on the other hand has been cut off from the international community and met with constant sanctions and threats. It could of course be said that their actions have deserved that but I'm not sure if it does anything other than exacerbate the divide and encourage the hardliners to a position of strength on the back of a wave of anti-Israel/America sentiment. And in turn the attitude of Ahmedinejad and the actions of Hamas etc have enabled a belligerent figure like Netanyahu rise to a position of strength and allowed him to justify things like the settlement program, the iron hand on Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing campaigns. And that in turns feeds the anti-Israel hardliners. And so on. It's a maddening cycle of violence, surely at some point or the other one side has to relent on the hostility and sabre rattling. Maybe that's not possible with Iran and others because they're so opposed to Israel's very existence. But it's got to be worth a try and would be in everyone's interests.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

That is my point too, it is said Iran said this a good while ago, however I saw no condemnation from inside Iran when it was said.

Hey, faced with trusting Israel or Iran, then I would take Israel any day of the week.

While I can also agree in part with Nedusa,(and by the way I don't cherry pick what I say either),that Israel has committed wrongs as to the Palestinian people, it is easy to condemn Israel for that while then choosing to turn a blind eye to the more extreme elements as to the Palestinians inflicting,even at times unprovoked, attacks on ordinary citizens of Israel too.

Maybe more needs to be done as to the Palestinian issue with Israel,meanwhile in addition to that,Israel still has so many hostile nations around it.
Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is my point too, it is said Iran said this a good while ago, however I saw no condemnation from inside Iran when it was said.

Hey, faced with trusting Israel or Iran, then I would take Israel any day of the week.

While I can also agree in part with Nedusa,(and by the way I don't cherry pick what I say either),that Israel has committed wrongs as to the Palestinian people, it is easy to condemn Israel for that while then choosing to turn a blind eye to the more extreme elements as to the Palestinians inflicting,even at times unprovoked, attacks on ordinary citizens of Israel too.

Maybe more needs to be done as to the Palestinian issue with Israel,meanwhile in addition to that,Israel still has so many hostile nations around it.
Israel has to be able to stand up for itself, it has every right not to be just walked over too.

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Make no mistake nobody.......and I repeat Nobody walks over Israel, 6 Billion Dollars a year from the US all the advanced weaponry that the US has and over 200 thermonuclear warheads makes sure that Israel is never walked all over.

That really isn't the problem tbh.... the problem is that Israel uses this victim mentality to ensure they can pretty much do what they want to the Palestinians, I could spend hours here listing atrocity after atrocity that has been bestowed on the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is of Biblical proportions yet no one in the West seems to give a fig about their plight.

It is sickening and disgraceful and the US must take a large portion of the blame as it gives massive financial aid , advanced weaponry, intelligence, logistics and has allowed Israel to amass the 6th largest Nuclear weapons stockpile in the world (Allegedly).

The US uses its position to support Israel at all levels, it vetos UN resolution after UN resolution allowing Israel to commit mass murder and Genocide whenever it feels "threatened"

The state of Israel is a blight on this planet and there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel accepts it must make reparations to the Palestinians for the initial land grab and decades of murderous enslavement that has followed.

Israel must stop this war mentality and make a lasting peace and reach a settlement with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours.

The US could push this process along if it wished but it does nothing but continue the Status quo. It is a truly shocking spectacle to witness.

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think that,to be fair, is a rather inflammatory statement.
Furthermore, no one should be able to walk over Israel,no way.

I can agree it could help to get a solution to the Palestinian issue but I actually feel the USA and to a degree the UK too have failed to really come up with a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations as to that.

I could never agree that Israel is a blight on the planet,There are likely a majority of Israeli's in Israel who would love to be able to exist in peace and not have threats of war going on all the time as to it.

With respect too, even with a Palestinian solution between Israel and the Palestinians,I very much doubt that will stop the tensions in the main in the Middle East as to countries like Iran,who are against Israel even being there at all.

The way Israel is governed is tantamount to an apartheid state like pre Mandela South africa. The Palestinian Israelis are treated like 2nd class citizens and the Palestinians are treated worse than animals.

And funnily enough they are all semites so have no grounds for being racist.

Fact is Israel are not willing to allow Muslims to share any power in "their" land even if it was stolen from the Palestinians in the first place.

Ordinary Israelis are apologists for their Govt's they know deep down they are living on stolen land and know they have to support their Govt and it's armies to keep the status quo.

America knows it must support Israel financially and politically to keep Israel as the only Hegemon in the area so the US has an ally on the ground so to speak. It's all politics really but tell that to the innocent Palestinians who are brutalised daily and for decades. not much fun for them.

This is why Israel is hated by most if not all Arab Countries and Countries with Shiite populations like Iran.

This is why the US is hated in equal measure because they prop up this illegal state.

When people condone Israel and lay the blame at Hamas or Hezbollah they are showing extreme ignorance and don't want to see the truth that is right in front of their faces.

so yes the "tensions" as you put it will take years if not decades to subside because the damage done to generations of Palestinian families will take that long to be repaired.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

How many times has Iran, Iraq, Syria... a myriad of Arab countries - but especially Iran - said they they will wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? Why no thread when that happens? Only a reaction when Israel says the same thing the Arabs have been saying for... well actually, for centuries.

I don't think they've ever said it....do you have the direct quote or the direst misquote from the Israeli propaganda channel/fox news......they long to see an end to Zionism etc but I don't recall the exact words that fox and you have just regurgitated...lets face it Israel has zero right to steal land and steal country 2000 years after allegedly passing through there. its as dumb as an Italian laying claim to my house in mid wales because it was own by the romans 2000 years ago. Israel is an insane project that should never have happened and sadly will never work.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by the truth

I don't think they've ever said it....do you have the direct quote or the direst misquote from the Israeli propaganda channel/fox news......they long to see an end to Zionism etc but I don't recall the exact words that fox and you have just regurgitated...lets face it Israel has zero right to steal land and steal country 2000 years after allegedly passing through there. its as dumb as an Italian laying claim to my house in mid wales because it was own by the romans 2000 years ago. Israel is an insane project that should never have happened and sadly will never work.

"Vanish from the page of time," according to wiki, that is the direct translation, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...22_controversy). That's as bad as threatening to wipe a country off the map, if not worse.

As far as taking land, that is done all the time by companies and countries, and a lot of the time they write their own laws and answer to no one. And my point is, ownership of land can always be questioned. And what is right and wrong is very subjective.

And Israel is a modern country, it's surrounded by countries that are hostile to it. It's not an insane project. It's home to a lot of people who only want to live in peace.

Iran and the US seem to have gotten somewhat closer because of the war in Syria. I think the Israeli leader was just taking an opportunity to remind the US that Iran is not a real friend.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

"Vanish from the page of time," according to wiki, that is the direct translation, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud...22_controversy). That's as bad as threatening to wipe a country off the map, if not worse.

As far as taking land, that is done all the time by companies and countries, and a lot of the time they write their own laws and answer to no one. And my point is, ownership of land can always be questioned. And what is right and wrong is very subjective.

And Israel is a modern country, it's surrounded by countries that are hostile to it. It's not an insane project. It's home to a lot of people who only want to live in peace.

Iran and the US seem to have gotten somewhat closer because of the war in Syria. I think the Israeli leader was just taking an opportunity to remind the US that Iran is not a real friend.

dishonest editing as always....Zionism to disappear from the page...NOT Israel. ...but at least you've accidentally admitted the term wipe Israel off the map wasnever said and should never be used to justify world war 3 and the mass killing of 100s of thousands of innocents.
to Palestinians who have had their country stolen tens of thousands killed and bombed out of existence and most human rights taken away, isn't it natural for them to wish for an end to the Zionist movement that has seen them suffer so much? to the Palestinians the Zionist movement is as evil as the Nazis were to the rest fo the world

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by the truth

dishonest editing as always....Zionism to disappear from the page...NOT Israel.
to Palestinians who have had their country stolen tens of thousands killed and bombed out of existence and most human rights taken away, isn't it natural for them to wish for an end to the Zionist movement that has seen them suffer so much? to the Palestinians the Zionist movement is as evil as the Nazis were to the rest fo the world

But isn't Zionism one of the reasons Israel is there? (I've just looked up the word, so forgive me if I'm a bit off). So without Zionism there would be no Israel as we know it. I don't see any dishonesty.

Do you really believe that the Iranian Government wants the best for the people of Israel?

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But isn't Zionism one of the reasons Israel is there? (I've just looked up the word, so forgive me if I'm a bit off). So without Zionism there would be no Israel as we know it. I don't see any dishonesty.

Do you really believe that the Iranian Government wants the best for the people of Israel?

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

pls don't be so absurd , the israels stole a country and bombed the Palestinians into smitherseens every day ever since we help found this horrific country 60 odd years ago....they didn't say Israel in your misquote they say Zionism..the Zionism movement has been an evil one, that's butchered tens of thousands....the victims have every right to wish to see such a movement end

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by the truth

pls don't be so absurd , the israels stole a country and bombed the Palestinians into smitherseens every day ever since we help found this horrific country 60 odd years ago....they didn't say Israel in your misquote they say Zionism..the Zionism movement has been an evil one, that's butchered tens of thousands....the victims have every right to wish to see such a movement end

I don't see how your point of view will help make the world more peaceful. It seems to me if you had your way there would be no Israel.

And there are lots of conflicts in the world that are ongoing, ones that way more people are being killed in, so why chose this one. There have been half a million deaths in the Somalian civil war, land is being stolen. In the Israel Palestine war, about 25 thousand have died, land is being stolen.

I leave it up to you to figure out if you're antisemetic.

And you seem to be one hung up on that quote and you're totally mistaken, it was said by someone from Iran, not Palestine.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

And the Islamic side of this debate is the one who is beheading people and wiping out villages, the extremists in Judaism seem to only grow ringlets and quote scripture.

I would suggest that you look up Meir Kahane and the "Jewish Defense League", or the "unofficial" militant groups of Jewish young men and boys who patrol Gaza. Whilst we're not talking about the level of "wiping out villages", this idea that there is no such thing as Jewish or Christian extremism is, as always, nonsense.