[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

There are around two million Brits living and working in Europe. There are about sixty four million citizens in the UK.

It's fair to say that there are also many benefits of leaving the EU if you yourself were interested enough to read them.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

[Josy]

3

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Josy

3

What does this mean Josy?

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

What does this mean Josy?

It;s her answer to the question in the thread title.

I think it will be 6.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

It;s her answer to the question in the thread title.

I think it will be 6.

Oh Thanks Goth. I feel like a duhbrain now.

And I hope that your estimate is closer than Josy's .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh Thanks Goth. I feel like a duhbrain now. .

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Josy

3

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

What does this mean Josy?

it means Josy has not lost sight of the original question

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

He maybe,with respect, just looks at both sides and knows things are rarely all black or white but there is lots of grey inbetween all that.
I agree with all he has said.

Nothing is all negative or all positive.

Nicely put Joey

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

theres endless information and different ways of looking at all these matters, to try and state such a black and white opinion comes across as immature

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm glad my post and link made you laugh kirk. There's not enough laughter in the world!

Goes off and has a little snigger to myself.

I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A Dubaian?? Come on Kirk, just because they're Mooslims doesn't mean they're stupid!

Only your mind could come up with that T.S.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

theres endless information and different ways of looking at all these matters, to try and state such a black and white opinion comes across as immature

... You trollin'?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

... You trollin'?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I love you Red - even if we are diametrically opposed on most subjects (it seems)

p.s - There sure is a lot of good ole foreign names on that list of impartial worthies though.... Isn't there?

I'm waiting for the information you promised, I'm sure all the names associated will be good old English ones.

This makes an interesting read,

'Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.'


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...im-benefits-eu

[Kizzy]

More info that shoots a hole in the 'health tourism' UKIP angle.

'The cost of treating British people who become ill while travelling in Europe is five times higher than the cost of treating ill visitors from other European countries in the UK, official figures show.

The Department of Health data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that it cost Ł30m in 2013-14 to meet the costs of European visitors using the National Health Service. This is less than one-fifth of the Ł155m cost to other states in the European single market for treating ill British tourists.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...nt-cost-to-nhs

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

More info that shoots a hole in the 'health tourism' UKIP angle.

'The cost of treating British people who become ill while travelling in Europe is five times higher than the cost of treating ill visitors from other European countries in the UK, official figures show.

The Department of Health data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that it cost Ł30m in 2013-14 to meet the costs of European visitors using the National Health Service. This is less than one-fifth of the Ł155m cost to other states in the European single market for treating ill British tourists.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...nt-cost-to-nhs

Also put that 30 million into the perspective of the annual nhs budget which I believe is over 95 billion. Its not even going to dent our deficit which would be the only reason for restricting who medical treatment is provided to.

[Kizzy]

UKIPs popularity is on the wane, they are a bit of a one trick pony ...do they even have a manifesto yet?

I had no idea Al Murray was standing in south Thanet

Spoiler:

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm waiting for the information you promised, I'm sure all the names associated will be good old English ones.

This makes an interesting read,

'Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.'


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...im-benefits-eu

An interesting read, what does Farage and his cronies plan to do with all those expats who will become foreigners in their adopted land should we exit the EU I wonder?


Kirk?? you know alot about their proposals has this been addressed?

[Kizzy]

They'll become 2 million illegal immigrants overseas, I think that's as far as the plans have gotten so far.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

UKIPs popularity is on the wane, they are a bit of a one trick pony ...do they even have a manifesto yet?

I had no idea Al Murray was standing in south Thanet

Spoiler:

People in Scotland used to say that about the SNP as well.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

People in Scotland used to say that about the SNP as well.

That their only policy was immigration?