[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Yes ,real poverty exists in the UK,if people bothered to find those that are in it, they would get a real eye opener, sadly they are ignored or brushed aside socially.

Obviously it is nowhere near the scale it was in the 40s.
Which for most that were, must have been a really horrible time to be poor,unless you had some good neighbours and people around you.
When also looking out for each other was more the norm.

This is the example of change in attitude now in this day and age,staring us in the face,in the 40s no one could deny there were people in real poverty.
Here and now people actually think no one is because they don't know of anyone in it or see them and likely never look for them too.

Waiting for the media to find them and plead their cause,well we would wait for all eternity for that to come about.

It is easy to take the hardline view and judge and condemn,I have had to fight for a good few in real poverty, a house with just enough furniture, no 'luxuries' as to things like TVs,Hifi's.
Everything either given and by the time bills are paid,still a minus as to what is needed every week, and food bought being the absolute cheapest possible and not a lot of it either,devastating to see and heartbreaking to this such people are cast aside in the UK.

The UK in the 21st century doesn't want to admit it has anyone in real poverty,so denies there likely is.
because everyone knows it would be a shocking condemnation of all govt's past and present to still have real poverty in the UK.
So it is just sweep it all under the carpet.
Probably to some a carpet is even seen as a luxury item too.

They are there, they can be found if people look hard enough and what an education it is when anyone sadly comes across its existence too.
The hardline view seems to generally win all the time however,even when it is wildly wrong.

This is however for me the political parties to blame for this, all of them it is something every single one of them should hang thei heads in shame at, since Labour and Conservatives have failed to address even the smallest amount of real poverty in the UK despite them all knowing it does exist.
The whole lot of them should be condemned for their inaction on this and for allowing especially over the last 40 years at least,to just leave it hoping it goes away.

I most certainly 100% agree with that and the paper suggests it's the age of individualism that we live in that is to blame, we don't have the same attitudes to family let alone strangers that are less fortunate.
The fact that subsequent governments and the loss of industry and community has created pockets of extreme socioeconomic deprivation.
It's the attitudinal shift that's the focus of the study, that cannot be denied. It's argued that absolute poverty exists in the same context it was in the 40s in the UK and yet the evidence is there, if some choose not to acknowledge it.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I most certainly 100% agree with that and the paper suggests it's the age of individualism that we live in that is to blame, we don't have the same attitudes to family let alone strangers that are less fortunate.
The fact that subsequent governments and the loss of industry and community has created pockets of extreme socioeconomic deprivation.
It's the attitudinal shift that's the focus of the study, that cannot be denied. It's argued that absolute poverty exists in the same context it was in the 40s in the UK and yet the evidence is there, if some choose not to acknowledge it.

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by the truth

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

I totally agree with this. I grew up in the fifties and my dad died when I was 8. We were a large family and whilst we never starved, we were often hungry. However what help my mother recieved was nearly always in vouchers.
There were vouchers for free milk, vitamins and orange juice and free school dinners.
My mum had a small widows pension and she went out cleaning to earn the rest. We often went without things, but as I say, we didn't starve and we got nowhere near the benefits that people get today.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

Err... Working people get child benefit...

Also, what exactly is "children's food"? Is it different from normal food?? I've been feeding my kids regular food! Will they be OK?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Err... Working people get child benefit...

Also, what exactly is "children's food"? Is it different from normal food?? I've been feeding my kids regular food! Will they be OK?

Exactly.
We are supposed be progressing in the 21st century not going backwards.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

I don't agree with the vouchers route for anything at all I'm afraid.

For me, that would not be a good road to start going down at all and all entitlements should be paid in cash or into a bank account in my view, so that all people have the advantages of shopping around for the best bargains, in shops, markets,supermarkets and stores.just like everyone else can.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I most certainly 100% agree with that and the paper suggests it's the age of individualism that we live in that is to blame, we don't have the same attitudes to family let alone strangers that are less fortunate.
The fact that subsequent governments and the loss of industry and community has created pockets of extreme socioeconomic deprivation.
It's the attitudinal shift that's the focus of the study, that cannot be denied. It's argued that absolute poverty exists in the same context it was in the 40s in the UK and yet the evidence is there, if some choose not to acknowledge it.

I don't choose not to acknowledge it Kizzy,I just have never seen families starving to death here,people are not intergrating as they used to I agree,but I think a lot of that is down to technology,and peoples lack of interest,I really think SOME people do not manage their money properly,or waste it on things that they really could live without.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I don't choose not to acknowledge it Kizzy,I just have never seen families starving to death here,people are not intergrating as they used to I agree,but I think a lot of that is down to technology,and peoples lack of interest,I really think SOME people do not manage their money properly,or waste it on things that they really could live without.

Yes, but Kazanne, sorry there is a 'but' my friend,because I really hate disagreeing wth you at any time.
While doing so however you open up some very strong,valid and important facts as to dealing with money,that are not being addressed by any in power, past or present.

I have come across some horrific sights, a Mother left on her own, the Father gone for ages, she has what I would have termed a pittance to live on, no luxuries, just an old radio.

A lot of these people.like her, never have anyone checking up on them to see how they are, they are left to struggle day after day, week after week.
I thought one was bad enough, when I searched further and found a good number living this way,I was sickened.

These are the minorites that should be splashed all over the front pages to shame all govts; and those who seek power to govern, not the odd one or 2 with 10 children or the odd one that claimed x amount of benefits they shouldn't have.
These would not be news however ,and also the only bit of pride they may have left is their sadly 'isolation' from the rest of society.

Now you do make a fair point, some people are not good with money,it is not that they buy things they shouldn't,with respect that is another overpopularised genralisation, however people do get into difficulties I agree with that wholehearedly.

The problem is again, no officialdom is set up help for them to get 'confidential' advice, places like the CAB are bursting at the seams with loads of issues to deal with,so many slip through and are simple lost in the 'system',as politicians call it.

Universal credit from your govt;(had to get that in),will have housing benefit paid direct to the claimant, not the landlord.
That is going to cause massive problems I can see, in the future,for as you rightly said, some who maybe are poor in dealing with everyday things.

People with dementia for instance will be getting housing benefit paid direct to them,they then have to ensure they have to pay the landlord.
This govt; shows no responsibility at all as to such people.
The pressures will in some cases then fall on carers,or family who are then made to feel responsible for dealing with same.

I,taking on board your point as to some not managing money, well,then I would actually see that payments for all their essentials like Rent, council tax, water, electricity and gas were paid direct from their benefits.so what they had afterwards was what they knew was theirs to live on.
Sadly it seems this govt;particularly is putting the onus on those who receive 'entitlements' to have to struggle on and cope with all that themselves.
With less and less help being in place.

I agree some people are poor with money,that is a great point, leaving them to get on with things is not an answer however and also the answer is not to give them more, which was already paid direct to the source it was meant for however.
For me, it should be to extend that means, to those who would like it, or need it, to cover the other payments I mentioned above too.

What needs to be set in place are people to help claimants with their money,someone who has a good wage for decades, who then comes out of work,suddenly finds themself on a pittance.
really hard to adjust with the same bills and outgoings to have to do.

For those in absolute poverty,it is soul destroying, however they have come to know no different.
For govts; the good thing is likely these people will not have long lives,it is however still a disgrace,in my view, in the 21st century in the 5th or 6th largest economy in the World, that we have anyone in 'real' poverty at all.
Sadder still is that the vast majority of UK citizens neither think or believe it exists simply because they haven't seen it.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]

Yes, but Kazanne, sorry there is a 'but' my friend,because I really hate disagreeing wth you at any time.
While doing so however you open up some very strong,valid and important facts as to dealing with money,that are not being addressed by any in power, past or present.

I have come across some horrific sights, a Mother left on her own, the Father gone for ages, she has what I would have termed a pittance to live on, no luxuries, just an old radio.

A lot of these people.like her, never have anyone checking up on them to see how they are, they are left to struggle day after day, week after week.
I thought one was bad enough, when I searched further and found a good number living this way,I was sickened.

These are the minorites that should be splashed all over the front pages to shame all govts; and those who seek power to govern, not the odd one or 2 with 10 children or the odd one that claimed x amount of benefits they shouldn't have.
These would not be news however ,and also the only bit of pride they may have left is their sadly 'isolation' from the rest of society.

Now you do make a fair point, some people are not good with money,it is not that they buy things they shouldn't,with respect that is another overpopularised genralisation, however people do get into difficulties I agree with that wholehearedly.

The problem is again, no officialdom is set up help for them to get 'confidential' advice, places like the CAB are bursting at the seams with loads of issues to deal with,so many slip through and are simple lost in the 'system',as politicians call it.

Universal credit from your govt;(had to get that in),will have housing benefit paid direct to the claimant, not the landlord.
That is going to cause massive problems I can see, in the future,for as you rightly said, some who maybe are poor in dealing with everyday things.

People with dementia for instance will be getting housing benefit paid direct to them,they then have to ensure they have to pay the landlord.
This govt; shows no responsibility at all as to such people.
The pressures will in some cases then fall on carers,or family who are then made to feel responsible for dealing with same.

I,taking on board your point as to some not managing money, well,then I would actually see that payments for all their essentials like Rent, council tax, water, electricity and gas were paid direct from their benefits.so what they had afterwards was what they knew was theirs to live on.
Sadly it seems this govt;particularly is putting the onus on those who receive 'entitlements' to have to struggle on and cope with all that themselves.
With less and less help being in place.

I agree some people are poor with money,that is a great point, leaving them to get on with things is not an answer however and also the answer is not to give them more, which was already paid direct to the source it was meant for however.
For me, it should be to extend that means, to those who would like it, or need it, to cover the other payments I mentioned above too.

What needs to be set in place are people to help claimants with their money,someone who has a good wage for decades, who then comes out of work,suddenly finds themself on a pittance.
really hard to adjust with the same bills and outgoings to have to do.

For those in absolute poverty,it is soul destroying, however they have come to know no different.
For govts; the good thing is likely these people will not have long lives,it is however still a disgrace,in my view, in the 21st century in the 5th or 6th largest economy in the World, that we have anyone in 'real' poverty at all.
Sadder still is that the vast majority of UK citizens neither think or believe it exists simply because they haven't seen it.

I would never fall out with you Joey simply because you have a different opinion to me,that would be very silly of me,I also know you know far more about politics than me,I guess I have to go by my own experiences,I just see people abusing the system all the time and it's so unfair as peoples greed takes away from the very people who really need help,I don't see how the government can be blamed for that,people will always try and get something for nothing whatever help is put in place,I DO think people should maybe help themselves a bit,I know there must be cases that are genuine and they should get help,but the majority are lazy,devious buggars,LOL,now vote for Dave you know it makes sense

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I would never fall out with you Joey simply because you have a different opinion to me,that would be very silly of me,I also know you know far more about politics than me,I guess I have to go by my own experiences,I just see people abusing the system all the time and it's so unfair as peoples greed takes away from the very people who really need help,I don't see how the government can be blamed for that,people will always try and get something for nothing whatever help is put in place,I DO think people should maybe help themselves a bit,I know there must be cases that are genuine and they should get help,but the majority are lazy,devious buggars,LOL,now vote for Dave you know it makes sense

With total a full respect for you Kazanne, never in a million years would I vote for him,never ever, I think he is beyond all trust.

I don't know more about politics than others really, I surprisingly got an eye opener at UNI, when I got involved in many things that took me out of my sort of protected bubble and into others lives of those far less fortunate than myself.
I then found I wanted to really help and learn far more than what was just on the surface.
Something my Grandmother always taught me was never take for granted what those in power say, search out the real answers and things for yourself.

I actually really don't find many people abusing the system really, I have found many people however 'abused' badly by the system.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]


With total a full respect for you Kazanne, never in a million years would I vote for him,never ever, I think he is beyond all trust.

I don't know more about politics than others really, I surprisingly got an eye opener at UNI, when I got involved in many things that took me out of my sort of protected bubble and into others lives of those far less fortunate than myself.
I then found I wanted to really help and learn far more than what was just on the surface.
Something my Grandmother always taught me was never take for granted what those in power say, search out the real answers and things for yourself.

I actually really don't find many people abusing the system really, I have found many people however 'abused' badly by the system.

I was only joking Joey,I know you wouldn't,it's funny how we see things differently but I guess that makes for a good debate,so if Labour get in ,they better do a bloody good job Joey otherwise I will be blaming you

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I was only joking Joey,I know you wouldn't,it's funny how we see things differently but I guess that makes for a good debate,so if Labour get in ,they better do a bloody good job Joey otherwise I will be blaming you

If it is a Labour led govt; after May and they let their voters down,(in any way as badly as this PM and his govt; has done),people who had believed them and put their trust in them,I will be one of the first slating them for that.

I expect a lot for my trust,I got nothing at all last time,so I am as ready to fire off at any govt; as I am to praise if its warranted.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I would never fall out with you Joey simply because you have a different opinion to me,that would be very silly of me,I also know you know far more about politics than me,I guess I have to go by my own experiences,I just see people abusing the system all the time and it's so unfair as peoples greed takes away from the very people who really need help,I don't see how the government can be blamed for that,people will always try and get something for nothing whatever help is put in place,I DO think people should maybe help themselves a bit,I know there must be cases that are genuine and they should get help,but the majority are lazy,devious buggars,LOL,now vote for Dave you know it makes sense

All perfectly true.

[Ammi]

..I didn't misinterpret anything, I posted some thoughts and musings/some possible comparisons that could be made or not etc...to be either interpreted or misinterpreted as anyone chooses...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I didn't misinterpret anything, I posted some thoughts and musings/some possible comparisons that could be made or not etc...to be either interpreted or misinterpreted as anyone chooses...

Sorry but you did, as the reports in the media were not supporting they were exposing which to all intents and purposes is the opposite of what we have now in some newspapers.

[Ammi]

..there are many 'exposing' balances now of any slanting, we just have to choose to and be inclined to look at all of those balances...which is why it's so great to have access to so much more information in the present day...and of course, 'see for ourselves' in so much as we're able to/gather our own information...anyways I could choose to pass the while away in dissecting my musings further or I could not and get along with my day...I choose the not to, ya'll have a good day....