[arista]

H. Harman MP
on Marr just confirmed
Labour now backs the 2017 In or Out Referendum Bill



If only you got your Ed to do that

[smudgie]

Yes, rather like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted.
Labour has a lot of backtracking to do to win back favour I think.
It is a good thing for them to get back in touch with the electorate.

[arista]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Yes, rather like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted.
Labour has a lot of backtracking to do to win back favour I think.
It is a good thing for them to get back in touch with the electorate.

But before the Election they
did not trust the UK Public
to vote.

To Sly

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by arista

But before the Election they
did not trust the UK Public
to vote.

To Sly

Indeed.
Or desperate.

[joeysteele]

Weeks too late, in fact months too late.

This is one thing I found while canvassing,that people couldn't understand why Labour weren't offering one too.
It is the one thing, as I have said on here loads, I wished Ed Miliband had changed his mind on.

So I am really glad, this change has come,I am even more pleased Labour will be supporting it in parliament too, this will remove any chance of David Cameron now saying he hasn't the parliamentary arithmetic to get a referendum bill through parliament as well,were his re-negotiation to go badly wrong.
Despite any possible rebellion by some very pro EU Conservative MPs.

Of course had the Conservatives fully backed their own man, James Wharton MP, who had the foresight to try to put in place the referendum time anyway, all would have been near up and ready to go even by the election on May 7th.

A good and wise move from Labour and I give full praise to Harriet Harman for bringing about this change.
This could have helped greatly in the election,on this issue.
Although I will vote to stay in the EU, come what may,on this I have to agree Ed Miliband was totally wrong.

[arista]

"I wished Ed Miliband had changed his mind on."

Yes he Bolted the Door
ignoring Labour voters wishes


Union Pick Losers

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Yes, rather like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted.
Labour has a lot of backtracking to do to win back favour I think.
It is a good thing for them to get back in touch with the electorate.

thats why i will never vote them till this is done - and its going to take ages at this rate.

so this labour is going to be long and painful.

[bots]

Its all connected in with the view from some labour spokespeople that the public were deluded etc in voting the way they did. They wanted to remove people right to choose because they didn't feel they would make the choice that they wanted them to make.

Thankfully with Ed gone, that power block seems to have lost its influence too, but its something that needs to be watched carefully.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

But before the Election they
did not trust the UK Public
to vote.

To Sly

To be fair, a lot of Labour MPs said publicly they thought there should be a referendum,(just as there are Conservative MPs,who even still don't want one), also a great many Labour party members and workers like myself,despite being pro EU did also say, it would have helped a great deal.

However, the leader,as in any party, rubber stamps the policies and that is what has to be gone with at the time.
Ed Miliband refused totally to even look at the referendum issue again, he had a fair policy as to one and the circumstances as to same,that was not however what the voters wanted.

It wasn't about not trusting the public, more than about not trusting the media to report fairly and in a balanced way the good and bad as to the EU.
That is still my fear, that the media will hijack this and present their own bias rather than the 'honest' facts the voters need to make a much better informed decision.

[kirklancaster]

It's really incredible how both parties who have contributed to the demonising and ridiculing of UKIP, are now shamelessly stealing their policies and regurgitating the truth UKIP have been stating for years.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

To be fair, a lot of Labour MPs said publicly they thought there should be a referendum,(just as there are Conservative MPs,who even still don't want one), also a great many Labour party members and workers like myself,despite being pro EU did also say, it would have helped a great deal.

However, the leader,as in any party, rubber stamps the policies and that is what has to be gone with at the time.
Ed Miliband refused totally to even look at the referendum issue again, he had a fair policy as to one and the circumstances as to same,that was not however what the voters wanted.

It wasn't about not trusting the public, more than about not trusting the media to report fairly and in a balanced way the good and bad as to the EU.
That is still my fear, that the media will hijack this and present their own bias rather than the 'honest' facts the voters need to make a much better informed decision.

With regard to the EU in/out ref, its never going to be an equal campaign or argument, and there are good reasons for that in itself. The status quo is that we are in, the onus should be on the out campaign to put enough doubt in peoples minds for them to think again. But rightly, because it is the status quo, it will have more voice and money behind it. UKIP's argument, that it should be an equally funded campaign is a joke, because it is putting a barrier in there that is just not possible. Meaning, unless the UK vote NO, they will always cry foul play.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It's really incredible how both parties who have contributed to the demonising and ridiculing of UKIP, are now shamelessly stealing their policies and regurgitating the truth UKIP have been stating for years.

I don't think so Kirk, I'm pretty sure the major parties are not supporting leaving Europe, they're getting the referrendum out of the way hoping for a massive "No" so that they can quickly dismiss the question for the next few decades.

The campaign-o'-fear has already started with the BofE "accidentally" ( ) forwarding a sensitive email to the national press.

[arista]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It's really incredible how both parties who have contributed to the demonising and ridiculing of UKIP, are now shamelessly stealing their policies and regurgitating the truth UKIP have been stating for years.

Yes 4 Million Voted for your UKIP
many in the North were Labour voters jumping ship.

I am Conservative Pro
but unlike Labour
I never Diss UKIP
I give them full respect


4 Million voters is Massive
for a new party.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

To be fair, a lot of Labour MPs said publicly they thought there should be a referendum,(just as there are Conservative MPs,who even still don't want one), also a great many Labour party members and workers like myself,despite being pro EU did also say, it would have helped a great deal.

However, the leader,as in any party, rubber stamps the policies and that is what has to be gone with at the time.
Ed Miliband refused totally to even look at the referendum issue again, he had a fair policy as to one and the circumstances as to same,that was not however what the voters wanted.

It wasn't about not trusting the public, more than about not trusting the media to report fairly and in a balanced way the good and bad as to the EU.
That is still my fear, that the media will hijack this and present their own bias rather than the 'honest' facts the voters need to make a much better informed decision.

I agree Joey, but part of it was the FEAR of being deemed as Xenophobic and Racist by the majority of the public which would have adversely impacted upon their election chances. However, Farage walked through that storm alone and lo and behold it was revealed that a larger percentage of the GBP AGREED with him - then, and ONLY then did the other parties start making the appropriate EU referendum/Immigration curb noises.

I do totally agree with you though that trying to find TRUE IMPARTIAL HONEST FACTS about the EU is like trying to find gold dust in a chocolate eclair.

The TRUTH is out there, but it involves a hell of a lot of research and cross referencing to find it.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It's really incredible how both parties who have contributed to the demonising and ridiculing of UKIP, are now shamelessly stealing their policies and regurgitating the truth UKIP have been stating for years.

Not really stealing their policies, at least for the election Labour didn't do so.

The Conservatives have moved to a referendum stance ever since 2001 and William Hague's wrong warnings about the UK joining the Euro.

UKIP is still the only party,that with or without a referendum,(therefore that original policy of theirs intact and not taken up by any other party), also with or without any new reforms or deals with the EU,who would leave the EU.
That is their main EU policy.

No other party at this time, is in any way advocating support for leaving the EU despite the referendum.
Which is totally still at odds with UKIP's stance as to same.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

With regard to the EU in/out ref, its never going to be an equal campaign or argument, and there are good reasons for that in itself. The status quo is that we are in, the onus should be on the out campaign to put enough doubt in peoples minds for them to think again. But rightly, because it is the status quo, it will have more voice and money behind it. UKIP's argument, that it should be an equally funded campaign is a joke, because it is putting a barrier in there that is just not possible. Meaning, unless the UK vote NO, they will always cry foul play.

All good points again too.

[Crimson Dynamo]

oh so ukip were right after all

funny that

[joeysteele]

As to a referendum,I would concede that UKIP have the mood and support of the voters in the main as to that.
I personally don't want one,when it comes, as it will now, with assured majority Conservative and Labour support in parliament,I will vote to stay in and hope the UK does too.

UKIP did however set the agenda for this and so the fact this referendum will now be held,no matter what the outcome appears to be,has to be down to their efforts.
They have achieved by that effort, even though I disagree with them,a referendum that has been impossible to get from any party in the UK,since 1975.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

As to a referendum,I would concede that UKIP have the mood and support of the voters in the main as to that.
I personally don't want one,when it comes, as it will now, with assured majority Conservative and Labour support in parliament,I will vote to stay in and hope the UK does too.

UKIP did however set the agenda for this and so the fact this referendum will now be held,no matter what the outcome appears to be,has to be down to their efforts.
They have achieved by that effort, even though I disagree with them,a referendum that has been impossible to get from any party in the UK,since 1975.

I agree. I would also say that for years the public have wanted this referendum, that doesn't mean they want to vote no, it means they want the right to choose, its a big difference. The number of No voters will in no way correspond to the numbers wanting a referendum.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think so Kirk, I'm pretty sure the major parties are not supporting leaving Europe, they're getting the referrendum out of the way hoping for a massive "No" so that they can quickly dismiss the question for the next few decades.

The campaign-o'-fear has already started with the BofE "accidentally" ( ) forwarding a sensitive email to the national press.

If you are suggesting that the 'accidental' e-mail was a deliberate ploy and just an ingenious part of the pro-EU propaganda machine - then I totally agree with you T.S and we think alike.

'Accident' my arse.

The super rich, the multi-National Corporations and corrupt politicians with connections to those first two listed and who receive their kick-backs from them, are the ones who TOOK us into Europe and who are KEEPING us in Europe, and it is brilliant devised propaganda tactics like this bollox 'accident' in addition to their control of the all powerful media which virtually GUARANTEES that the public will swallow their tripe and vote to STAY in.

(**** -I'm beginning to sound like Russell Brand! )

[MTVN]

I still don't see why we need a referendum really. If 'the people need to have their say' on every major issue then why don't we have a referendum on our UN membership, or being a part of Nato? Why don't we have a referendum on the monarchy? That's not how it works, we elect our representatives every few years to entrust them with these decisions and so that they can enforce their policies, and the vast majority of us vote for parties which support EU membership. If people want us to leave the EU then they should vote for a party which upholds that stance - UKIP.

Having said that at least this will hopefully draw a line under it for the next few decades, but there's gonna be several months of annoying speculation and instability in the build up to it

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

oh so ukip were right after all

funny that

No Logical

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I still don't see why we need a referendum really. If 'the people need to have their say' on every major issue then why don't we have a referendum on our UN membership, or being a part of Nato? Why don't we have a referendum on the monarchy? That's not how it works, we elect our representatives every few years to entrust them with these decisions and so that they can enforce their policies, and the vast majority of us vote for parties which support EU membership. If people want us to leave the EU then they should vote for a party which upholds that stance - UKIP.

Having said that at least this will hopefully draw a line under it for the next few decades, but there's gonna be several months of annoying speculation and instability in the build up to it

There could be over a year at least as to that now.

I recall reading that Margaret Thatcher was massively opposed to referenda at all, she said govts. were elected to govern and then either held support or got thrown out later as to the decisions they took.

I think they hold uncertain outcomes that if they are held on an issue where balanced and true facts are likely to be clouded at best.

I sense,maybe, there is a feeling in Westminster to help David Cameron on this issue now,
He could yet be the Prime Minister,on his own efforts, that presides over the UK sleepwalking out of the EU,which would then likely lead to the Scots screaming for another independence referendum too in light of that event.

So I feel Labour now also realise the dangers of a major split on the EU being disastrous.
If they have any chance of all as to being a majority govt. in 2020,then they may have just realised the chaos there could be in the event of a no result.
So I just hope the UK votes to stay in and more to the point, conclusively too.

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I still don't see why we need a referendum really. If 'the people need to have their say' on every major issue then why don't we have a referendum on our UN membership, or being a part of Nato? Why don't we have a referendum on the monarchy? That's not how it works, we elect our representatives every few years to entrust them with these decisions and so that they can enforce their policies, and the vast majority of us vote for parties which support EU membership. If people want us to leave the EU then they should vote for a party which upholds that stance - UKIP.

Having said that at least this will hopefully draw a line under it for the next few decades, but there's gonna be several months of annoying speculation and instability in the build up to it

I think a referendum is required when enough momentum builds behind a cause that none of the potential governments are prepared to support. Being realistic, UKIP could never be an elected government because they do not have the strength and depth (as of now)

The system works fine without referendum when there are genuine choices available

[arista]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I still don't see why we need a referendum really. If 'the people need to have their say' on every major issue then why don't we have a referendum on our UN membership, or being a part of Nato? Why don't we have a referendum on the monarchy? That's not how it works, we elect our representatives every few years to entrust them with these decisions and so that they can enforce their policies, and the vast majority of us vote for parties which support EU membership. If people want us to leave the EU then they should vote for a party which upholds that stance - UKIP.

Having said that at least this will hopefully draw a line under it for the next few decades, but there's gonna be several months of annoying speculation and instability in the build up to it

No thats in your head

Business Debates
will be great


Embrace Our Rights MTVN