[Livia]

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Where does it end? Should we round up all the still living Germans from that era and try them for allowing the Nazis to get into power too? We can't get the people in charge so let's get the people who lived in that era instead, they couldn't do anything to change what was happening but their inaction is obviously an admission of complicity.

He was basically admin, he was a glorified receptionist by the sounds of things. Blame the people who gave the orders, put them on trial. Going after people who likely didn't have a choice in the matter is just pointless and a waste.

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

The court found him guilty, so I would assume there is sufficient evidence. They are professionals and would consider things like that. Unless there was a vested interest, and all of the people in the court would more than likely be checked for that, there would be very little room for bias.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

No sympathy for the old bastard at all,he is old now and looks harmless,his deeds were abhorrent,and he needs punishing even if it is a bit lame.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

[Samuel.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

Very true.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

Hasn't he openly talked about his experiences in the last couple of decades though as a way to combat holocaust denial? That is something at least

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

what would you have had him do?