[rubymoo]

The problem is that children here are too molly coddled, parents are afraid to let them out to play for fear of abduction, children don't want to go out because of all their technology, health and safety has gone crazy so children can't even play proper games on the playground (we are a fearful nation, we live in a suing society), throw into the mix that if such and such has an iphone then they need an iphone, the bullying that is rife in schools and on social media, a lot of children seem to have a poor me attitude - these children i've found usually have no parents at home when they get home from school, so these children just need attention. When a child doesn't have all the lastest stuff they become outcasts, throw into the mix the junk food that they're eating with all the additives, preservatives, sugar, fat and salt content and parents who in some families both of them have to work, and school/nursery starting so early for our children compared to the rest of the world, it's no wonder they are unhappy, in other countries like Africa that Ammi has mentioned, the children are happier because they are all the same, they are as poor as each other, they have experienced the same as each other so are thankful and grateful for their lives, there is no health and safety preventing them from doing things, if they want to climb a tree or play conkers (probably don't have conkers!) but they can, they don't have adults preventing them from exploring their surroundings, they have freedom, they don't have social media so there's no bullying or bragging, the meals they eat are wholesome, fresh and adequate (i know that Africa is a very poor country and a lot of children are malnourished, i'm talking about the children in the areas that are happier, as in the OP), you can bet that these children have no access to McDonalds or Burger King, and in some countries children have a part to play in their families, maybe helping with cooking, farming, looking after siblings etc yet these children are happier, i think happiness comes from being valued and being valid, adults need to understand that children need guidance, support, love, freedom, boundaries, structure, and to feel that they matter, i think we need to get back to basics, but it'll never happen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7234578.stm

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

The problem is that children here are too molly coddled, parents are afraid to let them out to play for fear of abduction, children don't want to go out because of all their technology, health and safety has gone crazy so children can't even play proper games on the playground, throw into the mix that if such and such has an iphone then they need an iphone, the bullying that is rife in schools and on social media, a lot of children seem to have a poor me attitude - these children i've found usually have no parents at home when they get home from school, so these children just need attention. When a child doesn't have all the lastest stuff they become outcasts, throw into the mix the junk food that they're eating with all the additives, preservatives, sugar, fat and salt content and parents who in some families both of them have to work, and school/nursery starting so early for our children compared to the rest of the world, it's no wonder they are unhappy, in other countries like Africa that Ammi has mentioned, the children are happier because they are all the same, they are as poor as each other, they have experienced the same as each other so are thankful and grateful for their lives, there is no health and safety preventing them from doing things, if they want to climb a tree or play conkers (probably don't have conkers!) but they can, they don't have adults preventing them from exploring their surroundings, they have freedom, they don't have social media so there's no bullying or bragging, the meals they eat are wholesome, fresh and adequate (i know that Africa is a very poor country and a lot of children are malnourished, i'm talking about the children in the areas that are happier, as in the OP), you can bet that these children have no access to McDonalds or Burger King, and in some countries children have a part to play in their families, maybe helping with cooking, farming, looking after siblings etc yet these children are happier, i think happiness comes from being valued and being valid, adults need to understand that children need guidance, support, love, freedom, boundaries, structure, and to feel that they matter, i think we need to get back to basics, but it'll never happen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7234578.stm

..see, in our school and all local primary schools, children are not allowed things like phones/mobiles and not allowed logos on clothes and for things like schools visits..?...they're not allowed spending money so none will feel 'excluded' in any way and that's the foundation they are given, but these things are more in High Schools and it's a whole environment thing and always was/I don't think it's really changed in that ...there is just more stuff available and more affordable now but isn't that a positive..?../it's not seeing things necessarily as a negative ...

..and I don't think that's it with the children I have met either/the African dance group, that it's because 'none have more'...?..I have spent time talking to some as we always have some stay with us and it really is about their positivity as well, they've had their dark times, horrendously dark times but their positivity comes from their music and their dance/that's how they've 'healed' because they focus on that and not on those dark times...

..with childcare and parents not being at home at the end of the school day, etc..?..well there again, my parents weren't always home when school ended but it didn't matter because it was no indication to how secure and safe I always felt and how loved I felt because they gave all of those feeling to me ...and now we have breakfast clubs/after school clubs etc...so, so many children thrive in those, it's a great environment for them and gives so much social experience..it's not so structured as school obviously, so it gives them something completely different and their friendships expand there...all after school clubs that we run are always over subscribed so many children really do enjoy an 'extension' to their school day ...and being 'valued' etc..?..that's the whole ethos of most primary schools..that 'every child matters'....and encouraged in things that they're interested in or particularly feel they're good at....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..see, in our school and all local primary schools, children are not allowed things like phones/mobiles and not allowed logos on clothes and for things like schools visits..?...they're not allowed spending money so none will feel 'excluded' in any way and that's the foundation they are given, but these things are more in High Schools and it's a whole environment thing and always was/I don't think it's really changed in that ...there is just more stuff available and more affordable now but isn't that a positive..?../it's not seeing things necessarily as a negative ...

Children brag, though. Just because they aren't bringing their belongings to school, doesn't mean they aren't telling everyone about the things they've got at home, or the trips they've been on, or the new car their parents have, etc.

Now, that shouldn't really be a problem. Most are probably just excited and want to tell people, they're not trying to make anyone feel bad, it SHOULDN'T make anyone feel bad, people should be able to just be happy for their friends. However, as mentioned earlier, in a nation where "success" is measured by which job you have, how much money you have in the bank, what car you drive and where you went on holiday... there are all sorts of other issues tied up in this materialistic nonsense. The purpose and aim of the school system is completely involved in that lifestyle; kids are packed off to school at 4 / 5 years old for two reasons only.

1) So that their parents can get back into the workplace.

2) To start preparing the kids themselves for the workplace as early as possible.

Methods and standards of care vary across the board, but no matter how "nice" anyone is about it, that's the basics of what's going on. That's the system.

..and I don't think that's it with the children I have met either/the African dance group, that it's because 'none have more'...?..I have spent time talking to some as we always have some stay with us and it really is about their positivity as well, they've had their dark times, horrendously dark times but their positivity comes from their music and their dance/that's how they've 'healed' because they focus on that and not on those dark times...

I think you're right in that it's more about their positivity but the question is, where does that positivity come from? Is it just being glad to be alive, is it just because they have sych horrors in their past to compare it to so they know that life is now so much better? Or is it partly cultural? I would imagine it is. The question, then, being: If these kids manage to be happy becuase they have a positive mindset and outlook on life... then what has gone so wrong here to make it so that children - whilst on the surface not having any of those horrors to contend with - have such a negative mindset?

The answer in my opinion is again, all down to how we define success in our culture. And how completely shallow, materialistic and empty it actually is when you really take a look at it. I wonder if kids maybe instinctually feel this. The mounting pressure to enter a rat-race that is for the vast majority of people, ultimately unfulfilling. And also, yes, as Rubymoo says, there is an element of freedom and responsibility that is completely denied to so many children here. To play outdoors without parents fretting about paedophiles, to climb a tree without being berated for it because they "might fall", to just be allowed to live and explore. Bad things happen, but people are paranoid, and they stifle their children because of that. People in cages are never going to be happy.

..with childcare and parents not being at home at the end of the school day, etc..?..well there again, my parents weren't always home when school ended but it didn't matter because it was no indication to how secure and safe I always felt and how loved I felt because they gave all of those feeling to me ...and now we have breakfast clubs/after school clubs etc...so, so many children thrive in those, it's a great environment for them and gives so much social experience..it's not so structured as school obviously, so it gives them something completely different and their friendships expand there...all after school clubs that we run are always over subscribed so many children really do enjoy an 'extension' to their school day

I understand that this is true as I know there are a lot of kids at my daughter's school who love going to after school club, but I have to add, this sort of goes in with what I was saying above. Kids love this after-school socialisation, even though it is completely supervised, and that's because they don't have adequate socialisation with their peers outside of school otherwise. Their aren't kids in their local area, or if there are, they aren't allowed out to spend time with them, because roads / paedophiles / bears and what not. Clubs and supervised play are better than nothing but they don't compare to the freedom to just be out, with friends, exploring, and really getting to know each other, outside of an organised environment.

...and being 'valued' etc..?..that's the whole ethos of most primary schools..that 'every child matters'....and encouraged in things that they're interested in or particularly feel they're good at....

As for this, I know this is the official line Ammi and I know that you really believe in it, but I have to be totally frank and say... it's close to worthless. It's false. Prescribed, curriculum-mandated "value" that really does at the end of the day just feel quite hollow... it's not the same as being truly respected, given responsibility and valued within a family or community. I guess I wouldn't even really call it "being valued"... "Every child matters because there's an official school pamphlet that says Every Child Matters in it so they must! Quick, find something that little Timmy is vaguely OK at and tell him he's awesome. Tomorrow it's Suzie. I'll print a certificate."

As a nation we treat children as inferior and inconvenient. Embryos that we have to push along into adulthood so that they can become "real people", and then we can give them freedom and respect, rather than appreciating that they already have lives and they need more room to live those lives.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Children brag, though. Just because they aren't bringing their belongings to school, doesn't mean they aren't telling everyone about the things they've got at home, or the trips they've been on, or the new car their parents have, etc.

Now, that shouldn't really be a problem. Most are probably just excited and want to tell people, they're not trying to make anyone feel bad, it SHOULDN'T make anyone feel bad, people should be able to just be happy for their friends. However, as mentioned earlier, in a nation where "success" is measured by which job you have, how much money you have in the bank, what car you drive and where you went on holiday... there are all sorts of other issues tied up in this materialistic nonsense. The purpose and aim of the school system is completely involved in that lifestyle; kids are packed off to school at 4 / 5 years old for two reasons only.

1) So that their parents can get back into the workplace.

2) To start preparing the kids themselves for the workplace as early as possible.

Methods and standards of care vary across the board, but no matter how "nice" anyone is about it, that's the basics of what's going on. That's the system.




I think you're right in that it's more about their positivity but the question is, where does that positivity come from? Is it just being glad to be alive, is it just because they have sych horrors in their past to compare it to so they know that life is now so much better? Or is it partly cultural? I would imagine it is. The question, then, being: If these kids manage to be happy becuase they have a positive mindset and outlook on life... then what has gone so wrong here to make it so that children - whilst on the surface not having any of those horrors to contend with - have such a negative mindset?

The answer in my opinion is again, all down to how we define success in our culture. And how completely shallow, materialistic and empty it actually is when you really take a look at it. I wonder if kids maybe instinctually feel this. The mounting pressure to enter a rat-race that is for the vast majority of people, ultimately unfulfilling. And also, yes, as Rubymoo says, there is an element of freedom and responsibility that is completely denied to so many children here. To play outdoors without parents fretting about paedophiles, to climb a tree without being berated for it because they "might fall", to just be allowed to live and explore. Bad things happen, but people are paranoid, and they stifle their children because of that. People in cages are never going to be happy.




I understand that this is true as I know there are a lot of kids at my daughter's school who love going to after school club, but I have to add, this sort of goes in with what I was saying above. Kids love this after-school socialisation, even though it is completely supervised, and that's because they don't have adequate socialisation with their peers outside of school otherwise. Their aren't kids in their local area, or if there are, they aren't allowed out to spend time with them, because roads / paedophiles / bears and what not. Clubs and supervised play are better than nothing but they don't compare to the freedom to just be out, with friends, exploring, and really getting to know each other, outside of an organised environment.



As for this, I know this is the official line Ammi and I know that you really believe in it, but I have to be totally frank and say... it's close to worthless. It's false. Prescribed, curriculum-mandated "value" that really does at the end of the day just feel quite hollow... it's not the same as being truly respected, given responsibility and valued within a family or community. I guess I wouldn't even really call it "being valued"... "Every child matters because there's an official school pamphlet that says Every Child Matters in it so they must! Quick, find something that little Timmy is vaguely OK at and tell him he's awesome. Tomorrow it's Suzie. I'll print a certificate."

As a nation we treat children as inferior and inconvenient. Embryos that we have to push along into adulthood so that they can become "real people", and then we can give them freedom and respect, rather than appreciating that they already have lives and they need more room to live those lives.

..see, I'm not even going to comment on any of this..(mainly actually just because I can't atm/I'm all typed out..)...but I really do wish that you could spend more time in schools/our school/any school I have visited because athough, like in everything, there is always improvements to be made..(which is why other schools are always visited as well to look at their particular success..)...this is not 'in theory' TS and 'just something to be said'...children are most definitely not taught to be drones but very much encouraged to be themselves and have belief in themselves, whatever their abilities academically... but primary schools cannot do that alone, they can only be part of it with parents and the positivity has to come from them as well....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

children are most definitely not taught to be drones but very much encouraged to be themselves and have belief in themselves, whatever their abilities academically...

What you mean is that their strengths are identified and focussed on so that they can eventually go into a job / career that focusses on that strength and therefore be a more efficient cog in the machine. It is intrinsically the purpose of curriculum based education... there's no way around that.

If I am wrong, if it is not what schools are trying to do, then the only alternative is that schools are failing miserably in whatever it is they ARE trying to do, because we live in a nation of drones.