[kirklancaster]

I have refered to this before, but it is important:

In Godfather 2 when Michael Corleone is in Cuba at the time of the unrest - prior to the rebel Castro's eventual defeat of Batista - Michael witnesses a rebel approach the Captain of Command, take out a grenade and pull the pin, blowing himself and the Captain up.

This determines Michael that because these rebels were even prepared to kill themselves in order to kill the 'enemy', then the Batista Regime COULD NOT win.

This was to all intents and purposes, the film world's first 'suicide bomber' - a penomenom which in real life is now all too tragically common.

Michael Corleone's observation should be referenced by ALL the free world's leaders, and a SUITABLE strategy for defeating these ISIS demons determined, based upon it.

These cockroaches receive their training in weaponry and in becoming jihadists in special Training Camps within Syria and Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries before embarking on their journeys of immigration to our Western Countries to become 'Sleepers', 'Moles', 'Fifth Columnists'.

These cowards do not hide inside any wooden horse to gain entry to our cities of Troy however, instead, they exploit our compassion, turn it into a weakness and enter openly - dressed not in uniform or battle fatigues, but trainers and leather coats and baseball caps - hiding in plain sight among the thousands of genuine refugees and asylum seekers who are dressed just the same, who look just the same, and who we welcome in with open arms.

On the surface, once in, these cowardly vermin behave perfectly normally - just as those immigrants whom they hid amongst to gain entry - and are indistinguishable from them.

Surreptitiously, however, they are in touch with each other and their Commanders back in the Middle East, and are soon reunited with each other and with their weapons and supplies which are are stashed in safe houses in virtually every town and city in the UK from Southall to Tower Hamlets, Blackburn to Bradford. A lot of these safe houses are paid for by our own Housing Benefits system because the tenants of them claim benefits.

Just like other contraband - cigarettes and alcohol, fake designer goods etc - these armaments and weapons originally enter the UK in cars, trucks and vans through our ports, where REAL vigilance by the so called Port Security staff is laughable. Often it is even long ensconced ISIS fifth columnists on the Security Staff itself who 'wave their brothers straight through'.

An unarmed jihadist is but an impotent coward, who - if he walked into a crowded restaurant or stadium barking commands - would be swiftly overpowered and have the crap beat out of him by the civilians therein.

But once he is armed and has strapped on his 'Suicide Belt' and once he utiises the element of surprise aided by our complacency, THEN he becomes a lethal force.

The lesson is clear then:

JIHADIST + WEAPONS + COMMUNICATION = ATROCITIES

So we must STOP these seperate elements from combining IF we want to defeat these bastards BEFORE they can perpetrate these cowardly atrocities, because - just as in the Godfather 2 example - once they are combined, the death and destruction they can wreak before they are put down becomes unthinkable.

How do we achieve this? We:

a) Stop these terrorists entering in the first place.
b) Stop these weapons entering in the first place.
c) Root out these 'Safe Houses'
d) Stop the means by which these immigrant terrorists communicate with each other and with their ISIS bosses.
e) Root out these fifth columnists working in our ports and airports, on our Town Councils, and in our Civil Service.

As can CLEARLY be seen; the ONLY people who are realistically able to achieve ALL Five of the above prerequisites, are our SECURITY and INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.

Unfortunately, those same services are handicapped by.....

to be continued.

[Kizzy]

This smacks as alarmist and coming from a stones throw from Bradford myself I can't see any benefit in whipping up mistrust in communities.
Differentiated strategies PREVENT, CONTEST and no doubt others have been devised with the purpose of identifying and combating terrorism in communities and the wider environment.

[arista]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have reposted Arista - read it.

Thank You

[arista]

"Root out these fifth columnists working in our ports and airports, on our Town Councils, and in our Civil Service."

Yes Kirk
the French Ministers said that
on France24 , EuroNews, and FoxNewsHD


France has local elections in as few weeks.
so after 3 more days of break due the Nov 13th Paris Attack
things can change even faster

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

a) Stop these terrorists entering in the first place.
b) Stop these weapons entering in the first place.
c) Root out these 'Safe Houses'
d) Stop the means by which these immigrant terrorists communicate with each other and with their ISIS bosses.
e) Root out these fifth columnists working in our ports and airports, on our Town Councils, and in our Civil Service.

As can CLEARLY be seen; the ONLY people who are realistically able to achieve ALL Five of the above prerequisites, are our SECURITY and INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.

I think also that more could be done regarding the root causes of terrorism. So if you think of it like a timeline, of what causes terrorist acts through to an atrocity being committed, I'd pose that the points you make above come somewhere near the end/middle of the timeline but there's a whole lot of things wrong with the world that if they were to be addressed/solved, would have a much bigger impact on eradicating terrorism. That's more of a long term thing though and obviously doesn't help with current dangers. I don't know how well our security and intelligence services are equipped to deal with current dangers, but I think there are probably a lot of situations we don't see or hear about, and a lot of potential terrorist acts that get stopped without the public being told. But of course that's just conjecture.
And with point 'C' it strikes me as so strange that terrorists can even have safe houses. When the government holds so much information on us, how can these places stay hidden so well?

P.S. don't leave SD Kirk!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Did i not hear today that one of the young, ignorant brainwashed twits came "disguised" as a refugee through Greece?



Now scroll back a few months and when Nigel Farage warned precisely of this...


ask yourself... what was your reaction?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

The whole 'shutting down' thing does seem to be a common occurrence. I've lost count of the amount of times someone has told me that I'm too young to understand a topic, or I've been called too idealistic. The worst is when people respond with a single emoji (usually or ) in response to my posts without even properly responding, it's really rude tbh.

If someone calls you 'idealistic', take it as a compliment And if they comment on your age then it's only coz they're jealous of your youth haha!

[Tom4784]

People have different opinions and debate is a wonderful thing, celebrate that we have the freedom to believe what we want to believe and debate whatever we like. If someone questions your opinion then take it as an opportunity to discuss it further. Stand your ground and debate and see where things go, you may end up at an impasse or your opinions may evolve. You don't know if you don't try.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Did i not hear today that one of the young, ignorant brainwashed twits came "disguised" as a refugee through Greece?



Now scroll back a few months and when Nigel Farage warned precisely of this...


ask yourself... what was your reaction?

It has nothing do do with proper immigration though, this has been caused by Germany's open borders policy and the complete lack of a sound policy on how to tackle the refugee crisis by Europe who passed the buck at every opportunity

[Johnnyuk123]

Farage was right all along. Shut the borders asap.

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have refered to this before, but it is important:

In Godfather 2 when Michael Corleone is in Cuba at the time of the unrest - prior to the rebel Castro's eventual defeat of Batista - Michael witnesses a rebel approach the Captain of Command, take out a grenade and pull the pin, blowing himself and the Captain up.

This determines Michael that because these rebels were even prepared to kill themselves in order to kill the 'enemy', then the Batista Regime COULD NOT win.

This was to all intents and purposes, the film world's first 'suicide bomber' - a penomenom which in real life is now all too tragically common.

Michael Corleone's observation should be referenced by ALL the free world's leaders, and a SUITABLE strategy for defeating these ISIS demons determined, based upon it.

These cockroaches receive their training in weaponry and in becoming jihadists in special Training Camps within Syria and Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries before embarking on their journeys of immigration to our Western Countries to become 'Sleepers', 'Moles', 'Fifth Columnists'.

These cowards do not hide inside any wooden horse to gain entry to our cities of Troy however, instead, they exploit our compassion, turn it into a weakness and enter openly - dressed not in uniform or battle fatigues, but trainers and leather coats and baseball caps - hiding in plain sight among the thousands of genuine refugees and asylum seekers who are dressed just the same, who look just the same, and who we welcome in with open arms.

On the surface, once in, these cowardly vermin behave perfectly normally - just as those immigrants whom they hid amongst to gain entry - and are indistinguishable from them.

Surreptitiously, however, they are in touch with each other and their Commanders back in the Middle East, and are soon reunited with each other and with their weapons and supplies which are are stashed in safe houses in virtually every town and city in the UK from Southall to Tower Hamlets, Blackburn to Bradford. A lot of these safe houses are paid for by our own Housing Benefits system because the tenants of them claim benefits.

Just like other contraband - cigarettes and alcohol, fake designer goods etc - these armaments and weapons originally enter the UK in cars, trucks and vans through our ports, where REAL vigilance by the so called Port Security staff is laughable. Often it is even long ensconced ISIS fifth columnists on the Security Staff itself who 'wave their brothers straight through'.

An unarmed jihadist is but an impotent coward, who - if he walked into a crowded restaurant or stadium barking commands - would be swiftly overpowered and have the crap beat out of him by the civilians therein.

But once he is armed and has strapped on his 'Suicide Belt' and once he utiises the element of surprise aided by our complacency, THEN he becomes a lethal force.

The lesson is clear then:

JIHADIST + WEAPONS + COMMUNICATION = ATROCITIES

So we must STOP these seperate elements from combining IF we want to defeat these bastards BEFORE they can perpetrate these cowardly atrocities, because - just as in the Godfather 2 example - once they are combined, the death and destruction they can wreak before they are put down becomes unthinkable.

How do we achieve this? We:

a) Stop these terrorists entering in the first place.
b) Stop these weapons entering in the first place.
c) Root out these 'Safe Houses'
d) Stop the means by which these immigrant terrorists communicate with each other and with their ISIS bosses.
e) Root out these fifth columnists working in our ports and airports, on our Town Councils, and in our Civil Service.

As can CLEARLY be seen; the ONLY people who are realistically able to achieve ALL Five of the above prerequisites, are our SECURITY and INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.

Unfortunately, those same services are handicapped by.....

to be continued.

I will comment on this post directly....

We are fortunate enough to live in a democracy where we can live relatively free lives. The terrorists aim to instil fear in our population and force us to remove the freedoms that we so enjoy.

Closing borders makes us an insular state, Not a free one. It encourages an us and them society where those considered different from the norm will be persecuted. Its not the way to proceed if we want to hold on to our core values.

The problem I think is that everyone seems to expect/want an instant solution, and there just isn't one. If we are to wipe out this menace it WILL take generations to achieve. In the mean time, we go on as we have always done, because for want of a better word, that's what makes us British. The moment we deviate from that, the terrorists have won.

[Kizzy]

So what are your solutions Kirk, we know what you think is wrong. I posted some measures implemented to counter, what positive steps could be realistically applied to aid national security?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Farage was right all along. Shut the borders asap.

Yes he was .



But German Run Stupid Europe
lets any Isis agent walk through any
Motha Fecking border

[rubymoo]

Terrorism today is an issue we're going to have to deal with for many years to come, and i really don't know what the solution is.....my first reaction is to wipe them off the face of the earth, but then innocents get caught up in it, and realistically the terrorists were always going to come in on the coat tails of the refugees, (didn't IS say they were going to do this???? I can't remember where i heard this?) There have been many people who have said that this would happen, yet when this migration/refugee crisis has been at an all time high what else could be done?

The world was watching and borders had to be relaxed because of the vast numbers, maybe this was IS's strategy, to displace millions of people causing chaos so that they can filter in to the western world

Do IS want to rule us? Control us? Do they disagree with our way of life? Do they hate the world because they feel they are the victims? And in terrorising the world what do they hope to achieve? Because in my opinion the only thing they will achieve is their bodies in a body bag.

I for one don't know how this is going to be tackled, as it could go on for generations, all i do know is that we are living in a dangerous world, and i wonder what i've bought my girls in to

[arista]

"I for one don't know how this is going to be tackled, as it could go on for generations,"

France is Going after Isis hard
in Belgium today they were armed as they arrested
French there.
Their Prime Minister is younger
and he says they will Hit them
as hard as Isis attacked them on Nov the 13th.
They will go every nation fully armed
so they are not wasting time.

France has been Bombing Isis in Syria for
a long time
As do the USA Forces.

So this is why the Evil Terrorists (Isis backed) shouted in Paris
that France does it to them
before they blew themselves up.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Terrorism today is an issue we're going to have to deal with for many years to come, and i really don't know what the solution is.....my first reaction is to wipe them off the face of the earth, but then innocents get caught up in it, and realistically the terrorists were always going to come in on the coat tails of the refugees, (didn't IS say they were going to do this???? I can't remember where i heard this?) There have been many people who have said that this would happen, yet when this migration/refugee crisis has been at an all time high what else could be done?

The world was watching and borders had to be relaxed because of the vast numbers, maybe this was IS's strategy, to displace millions of people causing chaos so that they can filter in to the western world

Do IS want to rule us? Control us? Do they disagree with our way of life? Do they hate the world because they feel they are the victims? And in terrorising the world what do they hope to achieve? Because in my opinion the only thing they will achieve is their bodies in a body bag.

I for one don't know how this is going to be tackled, as it could go on for generations, all i do know is that we are living in a dangerous world, and i wonder what i've bought my girls in to

That last line made me really feel for you I don't know what the best approach is either but I maintain that more needs to be done in addressing the root causes, not just dealing with the terrorists and the acts themselves.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

That last line made me really feel for you I don't know what the best approach is either but I maintain that more needs to be done in addressing the root causes, not just dealing with the terrorists and the acts themselves.

Thank you, and i agree with you, i think terrorism will be around until we understand the root causes, only then can we fully know how to deal with terrorists, it doesn't stop me wanting them blown off the face of the earth, they're going to have the whole world gunning for them, and rightly so.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I will comment on this post directly....

We are fortunate enough to live in a democracy where we can live relatively free lives. The terrorists aim to instil fear in our population and force us to remove the freedoms that we so enjoy.

Closing borders makes us an insular state, Not a free one. It encourages an us and them society where those considered different from the norm will be persecuted. Its not the way to proceed if we want to hold on to our core values.

The problem I think is that everyone seems to expect/want an instant solution, and there just isn't one. If we are to wipe out this menace it WILL take generations to achieve. In the mean time, we go on as we have always done, because for want of a better word, that's what makes us British. The moment we deviate from that, the terrorists have won.

[jennyjuniper]

It's true what you say Kirk. The problem is that the government is making it easy for terrorists by cutting down on police, security, armed forces etc.,
It really is time to close the borders and throw everything we have at rooting out the b...... terrorists that are already here.

[arista]

Maajid Nawaz - Former Islamist , Now Anti -Extremism Activist

Has been on every News Ch today
even FoxNewsHD AM
he says Our PM is saying and doing the right things,
at last.
He also said on CNN that the UK is due a Attack
but he does not want a attack.

[arista]

The President Of America
after saying his Drone Killed Jihadist John
said he had stopped Isis getting bigger.
"Curtailed" the dumb word he used.

That was the morning of Nov13th

He is Turkey G20 Summit
saying far less now

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I will comment on this post directly....

We are fortunate enough to live in a democracy where we can live relatively free lives. The terrorists aim to instil fear in our population and force us to remove the freedoms that we so enjoy.

Closing borders makes us an insular state, Not a free one. It encourages an us and them society where those considered different from the norm will be persecuted. Its not the way to proceed if we want to hold on to our core values.

The problem I think is that everyone seems to expect/want an instant solution, and there just isn't one. If we are to wipe out this menace it WILL take generations to achieve. In the mean time, we go on as we have always done, because for want of a better word, that's what makes us British. The moment we deviate from that, the terrorists have won.

Good post

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Terrorism today is an issue we're going to have to deal with for many years to come, and i really don't know what the solution is.....my first reaction is to wipe them off the face of the earth, but then innocents get caught up in it, and realistically the terrorists were always going to come in on the coat tails of the refugees, (didn't IS say they were going to do this???? I can't remember where i heard this?) There have been many people who have said that this would happen, yet when this migration/refugee crisis has been at an all time high what else could be done?

The world was watching and borders had to be relaxed because of the vast numbers, maybe this was IS's strategy, to displace millions of people causing chaos so that they can filter in to the western world

Do IS want to rule us? Control us? Do they disagree with our way of life? Do they hate the world because they feel they are the victims? And in terrorising the world what do they hope to achieve? Because in my opinion the only thing they will achieve is their bodies in a body bag.

I for one don't know how this is going to be tackled, as it could go on for generations, all i do know is that we are living in a dangerous world, and i wonder what i've bought my girls in to

Ruby,that is what I worry about ,my kids,what the hell will they see and have to endure in their lifetime, I do worry for them.you are right it is a dangerous world ,ISIS seem to want everyone to be muslims and follow their way of life.Who really knows what they want,but they are subhuman to kill innocents like that.

[arista]

France Drops 20 Bombs On Isis Stronghold Raqqa in Syria

http://news.sky.com/story/1588256/fr...ronghold-raqqa

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

[/B]
And here we have it in a nutshell - well, 3 or 4 posts really - just what is wrong with serious Debates: an initial response post which misinterprets a post, a secondary response post which supports the initial misinterpretation and further misrepresents what was actually stated, then other posts supporting the initial and secondary erroneous response posts.

You dive in here to defend your friend - clearly without reading my post - just as she did not read it, and I will respond to your full post in another post later.

Bitontheslide dives in to "comment on the post directly" when he either clearly has not read my post either, or has done so without understanding it - because he is not in fact 'commentig directly on what is stated in the post but rather on what he erroneously assumes is stated in the post - as I will come to shortly.

Meanwhile, Girth applauds Bitontheslide's erroneous post and MTVN comments on it with "Good Post".

"Good Post" it may be, and worthy of applause it may be - but as a direct comment on MY post, it is irrelevant, erroneous, and misplaced:

"I will comment on this post directly...."

No, you are not commenting on my post directly at all - you are in fact being presumptious, as we shall see:

"We are fortunate enough to live in a democracy where we can live relatively free lives. The terrorists aim to instil fear in our population and force us to remove the freedoms that we so enjoy.

Closing borders makes us an insular state, Not a free one. It encourages an us and them society where those considered different from the norm will be persecuted. Its not the way to proceed if we want to hold on to our core values."


All excellent stuff - but WHERE in my post do I advocate "Closing Borders" and where in my post do I state anything which is contradictory to the other points you make which would justify you claiming that such points were a 'direct comment' on my post?

Where? I ask you politely to re-read my post carefully, then tell me just where? Cut and paste any sections of my post which you feel justifies your post as 'Direct Comment' on my post.

I posted what was to be the First part of a three part post and this first part was my take on the status quo regarding terrorism by ISIS killers in Western Countries. It was my considered opinion on the 'Hows', the 'Whys' and 'wherefores' laid out as statements.

I did not even PROPOSE the 'Closing of Borders', in fact I did NOT propose anything. I STATED the 5 steps which - in my opinion - were essential for defeating these terrorists scum.

They are replicated below. Please examine them:

Excerpt from my original post;

"The lesson is clear then:

JIHADIST + WEAPONS + COMMUNICATION = ATROCITIES

So we must STOP these seperate elements from combining IF we want to defeat these bastards BEFORE they can perpetrate these cowardly atrocities, because - just as in the Godfather 2 example - once they are combined, the death and destruction they can wreak before they are put down becomes unthinkable.

How do we achieve this? We:

a) Stop these terrorists entering in the first place.
b) Stop these weapons entering in the first place.
c) Root out these 'Safe Houses'
d) Stop the means by which these immigrant terrorists communicate with each other and with their ISIS bosses.
e) Root out these fifth columnists working in our ports and airports, on our Town Councils, and in our Civil Service.

As can CLEARLY be seen; the ONLY people who are realistically able to achieve ALL Five of the above prerequisites, are our SECURITY and INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.

Unfortunately, those same services are handicapped by.....

to be continued."

Now, WHERE do I state that borders must be closed? How does; "Stop these terrorists entering in the first place" mean stopping all immigration or closing borders?

It does not. If I had MEANT to advocate that all immigration must be stopped and our borders closed, I would have STATED as much. So why put words in my mouth? It is hardly fair or conducive to proper debate, but that does not stop certain members on here from perpetuating such misrepresentations, nor stop them from twisting my responses to such strawman tactics by clever use of the same tired old deflectors:

"You don't want people to have a different point of view from you don't post on a debate forum" and offensive comments concerning my ego - none of which actually relate to what I was saying in my response post, and so here the unfair misinrepresentation and duplicity is compounded.

For the record, my continuation post dealt with how - in my opinion - our Security and Intelligence Services were handicapped by our own people's dissent to every request for the extra measures they so desperately need to combat the increasing risks of terrorist attacks on these shores.

They ask for extra powers, and immediately a certain body are up in arms about some Orwellian '1984' nightmare with 'The State' just using terrorism as an excuse to snoop on 'ordinary citizens' with a 'further imposition on our personal liberties' etc etc yawn.

Anyway, Bitontheslide, I do not fault anything which you have to say in your response post - other than the fact that it is most certainly NOT a 'direct comment' on my post as you claim.

Kirk, your point 1 stated stop the terrorists coming here. How do you propose doing that without closing borders?

I also stated categorically that we shouldn't change as a people who we are and react to the terrorists because to do so means they have won. Your post advocated a number of proposals all of which would have affected our personal liberties. So, whether you agree with it or not, I responded to your initial post. It is a free debate.

Kaz and Rubymoo, I know how you feel, what our children will face is a big worry, but I remember the same sentiments being expressed 50 years ago and I think there will always be deeply troubling events in the world, just the names and locations change around.