[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

They are predominantly young men between 18 and 30 trying to enter this country illegally. That's how I judge them. And if they're trying to enter here illegally it makes me question the legitimacy of their refugee status, or surely a large number of them would have stopped at the first safe country they arrived in... or the second... or the third.

The best way for refugees to enter this country is via the UN camps where we can have some kind of certainty about who the people entering are and we can make a priority of families with kids.

If they know about such places and the system fair enough, what if they are just so desperate to feel safer that they try to cut corners,
We don't know them personally to understand why in desperation people appear to do strange things.
I really don't see what age has to do with things either,facing being forced into military service and getting your head lopped off by IS or others, or becoming part of IS and getting bombed to blazes. no wonder they try to flee.

Until we were in such desperate situations, we can only assume what could be the panic and fear these people feel.
There may not be any rational answer at all as to how and why they act in such a desperate situation.

Not for me there isn't anyway.
It is far too easy to take the line of all is either black or white while totally ignoring all the vast grey areas.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

If they know about such places and the system fair enough, what if they are just so desperate to feel safer that they try to cut corners,
We don't know them personally to understand why in desperation people appear to do strange things.
I really don't see what age has to do with things either,facing being forced into military service and getting your head lopped off by IS or others, or becoming part of IS and getting bombed to blazes. no wonder they try to flee.

Until we were in such desperate situations, we can only assume what could be the panic and fear these people feel.
There may not be any rational answer at all as to how and why they act in such a desperate situation.

Not for me there isn't anyway.
It is far too easy to take the line of all is either black or white while totally ignoring all the vast grey areas.

I don't know how I would behave if I was under ISIS rule.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I don't know how I would behave if I was under ISIS rule.

Yeah Mock - But would you leave your mother, father, brothers and sisters, grand parents, uncles, aunties etc etc. to face the terror of IS and almost certain death, rape and being sold off into sex slavery, while you join hundreds of other young men to casually stroll through one after another of safe European countries en route to the UK?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yeah Mock - But would you leave your mother, father, brothers and sisters, grand parents, uncles, aunties etc etc. to face the terror of IS and almost certain death, rape and being sold off into sex slavery, while you join hundreds of other young men to casually stroll through one after another of safe European countries en route to the UK?

As I said, reason and common sense goes out the window when fear and panic set in, many of the older relatives likely feel the younger ones can get out get safe and then if there is any chance to get the older ones out too.

I would dare bet many of the young men getting derided for fleeing were encouraged,even strongly urged to leave and try to get some sanctuary elsewhere.
We don't know everything, in fact we know very little of the situations of them all and therefore I will not make any negative judgements until there is undisputed proof to the contrary.

What is becoming more sad for me is that these desperate individuals still see the UK as a compassionate and loving Nation, when there are now a minority,( still thankfully a minority), who seem intent on taking the UK in a totally opposite position to that.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yeah Mock - But would you leave your mother, father, brothers and sisters, grand parents, uncles, aunties etc etc. to face the terror of IS and almost certain death, rape and being sold off into sex slavery, while you join hundreds of other young men to casually stroll through one after another of safe European countries en route to the UK?

Well no I would try and bring along as many of my family members as much as possible, if none of them wanted to go then yes I would still flee anyway as I'd given them the chance to avoid the scenarios that you're saying, but they didn't take it, which these men might've took my approach anyway.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well no I would try and bring along as many of my family members as much as possible, if none of them wanted to go then yes I would still flee anyway as I'd given them the chance to avoid the scenarios that you're saying, but they didn't take it, which these men might've took my approach anyway.

Did you watch the video Mock? These are not Syrian refugees fleeing from terror. If they were, they would be thankful to be in the first country that offered them safety. At that point they are safe from harm yet still at the closest point to any relatives they left behind and are still waiting on. Instead, once safe, they have gone through several countries, further away from their families. These are all people illegally trying to get in to the UK

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Did you watch the video Mock? These are not Syrian refugees fleeing from terror. If they were, they would be thankful to be in the first country that offered them safety. At that point they are safe from harm yet still at the closest point to any relatives they left behind and are still waiting on. Instead, once safe, they have gone through several countries, further away from their families. These are all people illegally trying to get in to the UK

Tbh no I haven't watched the video, but a lot of refugees or illegal immigrants will try to get to the UK because we're one of the most lenient countries around the world when it comes to immigration, I'm sure that a lot of them would like to go to a nearby country, but some of them are not necessarily easy to get into that are civilised.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Well no I would try and bring along as many of my family members as much as possible, if none of them wanted to go then yes I would still flee anyway as I'd given them the chance to avoid the scenarios that you're saying, but they didn't take it, which these men might've took my approach anyway.

Exactly Mock, none of us even have the slightest idea as to whether that was in fact the case too, that others didn't want to leave at that time,then the younger ones left.

It seems some know 100% for sure that 'all' of these desperate people are only 'illegal' immigrants, all of them.
That's actually even something govts and security people cannot say with full certainty.
Incredible.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Exactly Mock, none of us even have the slightest idea as to whether that was in fact the case too, that others didn't want to leave at that time,then the younger ones left.

It seems some know 100% for sure that 'all' of these desperate people are only 'illegal' immigrants, all of them.
That's actually even something govts and security people cannot say with full certainty.
Incredible.

Joey, by definition they are illegal because they are sneaking in to the UK on the back of lorries rather than going through official channels. They are doing so from a country that is safe from persecution and war. Are you seriously suggesting that is a legal method to enter the UK?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Joey, by definition they are illegal because they are sneaking in to the UK on the back of lorries rather than going through official channels. They are doing so from a country that is safe from persecution and war. Are you seriously suggesting that is a legal method to enter the UK?

I repeat again, in times of great fear and panic, reason,clear thinking and even planning along with what is termed common sense, whatever that may be to whoever says that, goes out the window,
So no, nothing anyone in such a desperate plight may do,in my view, warrants negative judgements of them.
Unless actually proven to be doing wrong and it is known for certain, not just making speculative negative judgements on their appearances and actions.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I don't know how I would behave if I was under ISIS rule.

That's the point until we were under it, really none of us do, or what lengths we would go to either to try to get away and save our lives.
Once panic and fear take over, reason and common sense can be and very often is lost.

Very easy to judge such people in that desperation negatively when not in the same position ourselves.
Totally agree with you Mock as to your very brief but very fair point.

I swear some of the UK is becoming totally intolerant and totally judgemental rather than reaching out in crisis.
What a poorer Nation we will,morally, be if that attitude spreads further across the UK.