[Ammi]

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

Totally agree

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...in thinking about this, this morning.. I'm not sure that it was ever going to be any different an outcome, it was always just..'when'..not if or should we/shouldn't we...as always with an attack/threat, it's flee or fight...as nations, as public, we can't flee, that's been shown with every civilian attack, we wouldn't know where to flee to, we wouldn't know what a place of safety was....there's negotiation yeah, but not with extremists, not with IS, negotiation is not something they want...I think it was Livia that said..we don't have anything to negotiate, nothing they want, nothing they want to hear...so there's only fight and that fight, the bombings were always going to happen ..today, tomorrow, a month away, at some point because of the relentlessness of IS and the relentlessness of their attacks that would just keep coming and coming...it's not something that sits comfortably/the bombing of Syria, I don't think that it is with any of us but I think it was never going to be any other outcome ...

mm that's a good point actually Ammi

[arista]

Its now looking
like a Terrorist Attack
due to his amount of weapon's he had stored.

The FBI
confirm Jihadist Material now found
at his weapons store.
Tactical Footprint

[bots]

wrong thread green man

[joeysteele]

Just about all I am learning even now in the last 2 days since this vote,is making me think the wrong decision was made.
I agree with Demolition Red again above, this could end up being really catastrophic.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Just about all I am learning even now in the last 2 days since this vote,is making me think the wrong decision was made.
I agree with Demolition Red again above, this could end up being really catastrophic.

We are due a Attack
in the UK.

we just do not know yet
what and the place

Even if we never started bombing Syria
we are still the on the hit list

[user104658]

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Exactly, the stark realisation that whoever got out by any means were lucky, as we fund razorwire, attack dogs and drone strikes it now dawns that all the innocents are now trapped and hope is all but gone.
Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...so you say, it was there so it must have been...a belief that it was the right thing to increase air strikes is all that I've seen and all that I believe was ever there...if you're trying to take some higher ground here over anyone who has been in favour of these strikes then I find your post far more offensive and sickening then anything else I've read in these threads...

Damn right I'm claiming the higher ground!
#NotInMyName

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There was plenty of hooting and crowing, but maybe we just have a different opinion of what that entails. Obviously not from everyone but ohhh it was there, and now it is gone, or at least, there's a lot less of it. People suddenly feeling less righteous. Which can only be a good thing because we have absolutely nothing to be proud of.

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'WE' have a lot more to be 'PROUD OF' than the bestial, evil ISIS scum who repeatedly mutilate the genitals of screaming 3 year old children while they are still alive, behead terrified innocent civilians, massacre in cold blood hundreds of innocent civilians in their OWN countries whilst they are just going peacefully about their daily business, and who rape innocent young girls before selling them into slavery.

Again making the mistake of assuming that when I say we don't have anything to be proud of, I am intimating that ISIS does. I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I am well aware that ISIS are far worse, but that the existence of such evil does not necessarily make the opposition "good". Something that you seem unable to grasp - and yet it's me who is being "juvenile and simplistic"?

You've lost your ability to see the shades of grey Kirk, or, if you haven't, you're doing a damned good impression of someone who has. You have the world in your head neatly divided into Heroes and Monsters.

I guess it must be an easy moral stance to take but, unfortunately for me, it's just not one that I can delude myself into.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not 'telling' at all, it's not telling of anything or anyone...I personally never thought that the air strikes were the right thing to do..(although I thought that they were inevitable at some point..)...they're not telling because no one has been hooting or crowing, I've never heard any hooting or crowing from anyone at any point in time...neither in people around me in my life or on here...just an opinion that they were more in favour of the happening/of the action being taken...as also the majority of politicians were, which is why a yes was voted...so whether civilains were killed or not, why would there be any puffing of chests...there wasn't any before any news of civilian deaths so why would there be so now...oh yeah, children/mothers/brothers etc are dead/hoorah...I can't believe that was ever anticipated by anyone and from anyone at any point in time ...and am staggered if it was...

A quite simply brilliant appraisal Ammi and 100% the truth.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Please provide links showing the general public that you speak about who are no longer hooting and crowing to support the airstrikes?

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Unfortunately it's racism deep-rooted in dehumanising these civilians - they're grouped together as usually '****ing muslims' or some other nasty remark of the sort. Then when a story comes along where a civilian is named, and their backstory is learned, people realise that actually they are all individual people with their own lives, only going on with their own business. By then, it's too late though.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I find it very interesting and telling how quickly the general public have stopped hooting and crowing about these airstrikes now that videos and pictures of the effects on normal civilians in Syria have started going semi-viral, and the politicians have started admitting that collateral damage is inevitable in the "messy business" of war. Turns out people only have a stomach for warmongering when they can pretend it's just Johnny Isis getting blown to bits, or people in full Muslim dress. When it's normal kids in baseball caps and pigtails it's a little harder to start puffing your chest about I guess. Gives me SOME hope for people I suppose. A little.

Can you please indicate to me the effects on Syrian people from British air strikes since the vote?

We didnt vote for any other countries involvement, only our own.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Can you please indicate to me the effects on Syrian people from British air strikes since the vote?

We didnt vote for any other countries involvement, only our own.

Sorry I forgot we were only doing strikes with nerf foam missiles and water balloons. It now seems obvious to me that, while other countries will be doing the bad air strikes, we will only do awesome ones, because UK.

Except that there have been high up government figures today outright stating that collateral damage (That means dead children, to the layperson, though they steer clear of such terms) are "inevitable" because "war is messy business" - a phrase so detached from the brutal reality of its own meaning that it makes me sick to my stomach. Although I suspect that's exactly how most high level politicians see it. Messy business and numbers.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Sorry I forgot we were only doing strikes with nerf foam missiles and water balloons. It now seems obvious to me that, while other countries will be doing the bad air strikes, we will only do awesome ones, because UK.

Except that there have been high up government figures today outright stating that collateral damage (That means dead children, to the layperson, though they steer clear of such terms) are "inevitable" because "war is messy business" - a phrase so detached from the brutal reality of its own meaning that it makes me sick to my stomach. Although I suspect that's exactly how most high level politicians see it. Messy business and numbers.

Doesn't mean it will be the norm, far from it. UK bombing of ISIS in Iraq, no civilian casualties so far. Its not the objective of the missions to kill civilians, you paint it like it is, which is both disgusting and wrong

I am fully in support of air strikes, and I will not be made to feel that is wrong by your conjecture.

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Doesn't mean it will be the norm, far from it. UK bombing of ISIS in Iraq, no civilian casualties so far. Its not the objective of the missions to kill civilians, you paint it like it is, which is both disgusting and wrong

I am fully in support of air strikes, and I will not be made to feel that is wrong by your conjecture.

I have at no point made out that it's the objective? It isn't the objective of drunk drivers to kill people either. "Sorry ossifer I were just trying to get home from the pub!" "Oh that's OK then sir, on your way then, I'll mop up the pieces of this child". If you can quote me "wrongly and disgustingly" painting it out to be the objective then feel free to do so, you emotive little fellow.

Im also not trying to "make you feel that it's wrong" any more than you are trying to "make others feel that it's right". Unless you are? I don't know. I can tell you that you're just as unlikely to convince anyone as I am, if that helps at all, and I have no expectations of changing anyone's opinion. Ever. People are stubborn, and don't change, and supporters of war will remain supporters of war. I have no illusions about that. I'm not making empassioned speeches in hopes of changing the world, which I don't like, or people, who I like even less. I'm content musing and passing comment on the inevitable descent of civilisation, actually.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

Doesn't mean it will be the norm, far from it. UK bombing of ISIS in Iraq, no civilian casualties so far. Its not the objective of the missions to kill civilians, you paint it like it is, which is both disgusting and wrong

I am fully in support of air strikes, and I will not be made to feel that is wrong by your conjecture.

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

What an odd thing to say, parliament make decisions on 100s of things throughout the year are you suggesting everyone fall in line with everything regardless of their own personal politics?.....

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

There was a time in the UK when people supported our forces once a decision had been made to take action in a country. People who now don't accept the will of parliament and continue to undermine the decision are nothing short of traitors in my opinion.

Wait, what?
We don't live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia, we live in a democratic country or did that one pass you by?

[Northern Monkey]

Nobody savours the thought of civilians being killed.Everyone has probably imagined what it would be like if we were at war with another country like Russia and our families were being bombed here in the UK.It is a terrible thought and when you think of any collateral damage which may and probably will occur in Syria(especially from the Russians who have 'dumfire' weapons which are relitavely innacurrate) i'm sure most people feel great sympathy.
But we are at war,Yes a very unconventional war but it's still war.I don't think any of the MP's took their vote decision lightly.It is poosibly one of the hardest decisions they've ever had to make.
Whether it is the 'right' decision is debatable.I mean is there really a 'right' decision on an issue like this?Both vote outcomes have there pitfalls.
I personally believe that it was the 'better' decision to expand airstrike into Syria.I think leaving this Islamic State to keep growing and growing is the worst decision and we should help to 'nip it in the bud' before it gets past the point of no return.People are dying now in the most gruesome ways imaginable in Syria by the hand of IS.They need to be stopped and as Ammi said it is not a question of 'if' we do it but 'when' we do it.I would argue that sooner rather than later is the 'better' option.