[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Is James Bond race neutral?

Because I hear Idris Elba is being considered.

If Idris get the role then he would be one of the best actors to have ever played the part. Should we rule him out just because he doesn't fit into the characters ethnicity even though he's a superior actor?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

If Idris get the role then he would be one of the best actors to have ever played the part. Should we rule him out just because he doesn't fit into the characters ethnicity even though he's a superior actor?

No one will ever top Sir Roger as Bond.

So you believe a White actor should have been considered for the role of Nelson Mandella? That's what the second part of your statement says to me?

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by wannashag

No one will ever top Sir Roger as Bond.

So you believe a White actor should have been considered for the role of Nelson Mandella? That's what the second part of your statement says to me?

Nelson Mandela is not a fictional character.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Nelson Mandela is not a fictional character.

You didn't say fictional.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by wannashag

You didn't say fictional.

Did I need to say that? I thought you would assume.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by wannashag

No one will ever top Sir Roger as Bond.

So you believe a White actor should have been considered for the role of Nelson Mandella? That's what the second part of your statement says to me?

Don't be silly, Nelson Mandela is a real historic figure, James Bond is not, him being white isn't vital to the story

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by wannashag

No one will ever top Sir Roger as Bond.

So you believe a White actor should have been considered for the role of Nelson Mandella? That's what the second part of your statement says to me?

..there is a huge difference though wanna, with a fictional character and someone in real life...

[Ammi]

..oh, must type quicker...I know it was just a one off character..(unless there are sequels..)...but Denzel recently played the lead in The Equalizer..I hadn't actually realised that it was based on the old series but that character was white in the series and Denzel stepped into the role beautifully, without any thought really other than to his acting...(it was a bit naff and corny I have to say/the movie but you know what I mean..)..

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

why would she? sounds to me like she just wasn't bothered whether Hermoine was played by a black or a white actress?

The books have been out for twenty years or so and read by millions and millions of people who've had a picture of Hermione in their heads. The films came out... Hermione was white. Had she been black originally, had Rowling made it clear she was black, no one would have a problem with it. But you can't suddenly change a white character to a black character for no reason at all. And the most annoying thing is, if someone has a problem with a white character being changed to a black character overnight, they're made out of be some kind of racist. (Not by you, Niamh... I'm speaking generally).

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Is he Scottish or Irish or English in the books?

We're talking race here, not nationality.

Originally Posted by GiRTh

If Idris get the role then he would be one of the best actors to have ever played the part. Should we rule him out just because he doesn't fit into the characters ethnicity even though he's a superior actor?

Yes we should.

I love Idris... I met him on Monday, he was charming. But he isn't Bond. How would you feel about a white actor playing Shaft?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The books have been out for twenty years or so and read by millions and millions of people who've had a picture of Hermione in their heads. The films came out... Hermione was white. Had she been black originally, had Rowling made it clear she was black, no one would have a problem with it. But you can't suddenly change a white character to a black character for no reason at all. And the most annoying thing is, if someone has a problem with a white character being changed to a black character overnight, they're made out of be some kind of racist. (Not by you, Niamh... I'm speaking generally).



We're talking race here, not nationality.




Yes we should.

I love Idris... I met him on Monday, he was charming. But he isn't Bond. How would you feel about a white actor playing Shaft?

Why is race so much more of an issue than nationality is? You're either sticking rigidly to his description or you're not :/


Re Hermoine: again what's the big deal? Characters when transferred to film are often very different from their description in the book, like the Divergent series, one of the characters is described as being 5'8" in the book, the actress who played her was 5'2", why is race a much bigger issue to height or nationality when it's not really important to the story?

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Livia

The books have been out for twenty years or so and read by millions and millions of people who've had a picture of Hermione in their heads. The films came out... Hermione was white. Had she been black originally, had Rowling made it clear she was black, no one would have a problem with it. But you can't suddenly change a white character to a black character for no reason at all. And the most annoying thing is, if someone has a problem with a white character being changed to a black character overnight, they're made out of be some kind of racist. (Not by you, Niamh... I'm speaking generally).



We're talking race here, not nationality.




Yes we should.

I love Idris... I met him on Monday, he was charming. But he isn't Bond. How would you feel about a white actor playing Shaft?

Outside of the movies... why would you assume that Hermione is white?? Why should a writer have to portray any character with a specific skin colour?? That really reduces the chances of people all over the world finding relating qualities to that character.
And I think the real question here is, why would it be a bad thing to thing of her as having a different race... The colour of a person should not be such a divisive issue... and people who do get upset over it, you have to question why it is that they see skin colour as a negative, or why they see skin colour at all.

And again, why would bond have to be white to be bond?? I really am at a loss to understand your logic here.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The books have been out for twenty years or so and read by millions and millions of people who've had a picture of Hermione in their heads. The films came out... Hermione was white. Had she been black originally, had Rowling made it clear she was black, no one would have a problem with it. But you can't suddenly change a white character to a black character for no reason at all. And the most annoying thing is, if someone has a problem with a white character being changed to a black character overnight, they're made out of be some kind of racist. (Not by you, Niamh... I'm speaking generally).

The theatre has colour blind casting literally ALL the time.

The same character is often played by both white and black actors sharing the role on a tour etc.

It's a different art form to a movie. Just as the movies for HP were largely different to the books. Different mediums.

I think the point Rowling made was that it didn't need to be made "clear" whether she was black and white anyway because it really doesn't matter.

I don't think the "pictures in their heads" whilst reading the books is at all relevant. 90% of the Harry Potter books I imagined whilst reading them didn't match up to what the film visualised. They're different mediums.

There are hundreds of various book covers that depict Harry Potter as a vastly different looking character, all of which look nothing like Daniel Radcliffe, or the guy about to play him in the theatre show. I don't think skin colour is any different to that to be honest.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes we should.

I love Idris... I met him on Monday, he was charming. But he isn't Bond. How would you feel about a white actor playing Shaft?

If he was a good enough actor and the part was well written I would have no problem with it.

So are you saying Idris isn't Bond simply due to his ethnicity? The quality of his acting doesn't matter, his experience doesn't matter, he's wrong due simply to his ethnicity? Even though all the novels have been adapted and the films being produced are brand new stories, we still cant veer far from the novels description of Bond? I hope the Broccoli family say 'stuff that' and give the job to the best actor available.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

If he was a good enough actor and the part was well written I would have no problem with it.

So are you saying Idris isn't Bond simply due to his ethnicity? The quality of his acting doesn't matter, his experience doesn't matter, he's wrong due simply to his ethnicity? Even though all the novels have been adapted and the films being produced are brand new stories, we still cant veer far from the novels description of Bond? I hope the Broccoli family say 'stuff that' and give the job to the best actor available.

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

The movies have moved on from the books though, if it were still set back in 50's I might think you had a point but it isn't it's set in present times

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The movies have moved on from the books though, if it were still set back in 50's I might think you had a point but it isn't it's set in present times

The principles of spying are much the same, you can't stick out like a sore thumb, and a black Bond in rural Russia, for instance, would.

I've sat through a Royal Shakespeare Company production of Henry V where Nigerian actor David Oyelowo played the English King. Now I really rate him as an actor, but what's the point of casting him as a white king? The whole thing centred around the joke that one of Henry V's names was 'Leroy'.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The principles of spying are much the same, you can't stick out like a sore thumb, and a black Bond in rural Russia, for instance, would.

I've sat through a Royal Shakespeare Company production of Henry V where Nigerian actor David Oyelowo played the English King. Now I really rate him as an actor, but what's the point of casting him as a white king? The whole thing centred around the joke that one of Henry V's names was 'Leroy'.

But you can jump from a building to helicopter without a scratch? ( -insert mad stunt that could never happen in real life here- )

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

Bond is a fantasy though, it's probably unlikely that anyone could get into most of the situations that he gets into. And the films being produced now aren't based on the original books, they're new stories so I don't see how the situations he's in (in the books) would be relevant.

If an invisible car is believable then a black Bond certainly is

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Bond is a fantasy though, it's probably unlikely that anyone could get into most of the situations that he gets into. And the films being produced now aren't based on the original books, they're new stories so I don't see how the situations he's in (in the books) would be relevant.

If an invisible car is believable then a black Bond certainly is

I'm really wasting my time explaining anything.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I am saying Idris would not be a good Bond simply on his ethnicity.

Have you read the books? Have you seen the situations Bond got himself into? No way would a black man be able to melt into the background like a white man could in certain situations. It has to at least be believable.

And as much as I love Idris, and think he's wonderful as Luthur (Who could equally have been played by a black or a white actor) I think he would be an awful Bond. If a black Bond was inevitable I'd rather Colin Salmon who is much more Bond-esque, in my opinion.

You start by saying Idris wouldnt be a good bond due to his ethnically then slightly back track by saying Colin Salmon might be Ok.

The TV spy series Alias had a top female Russian spy played by black woman Gina Torres with the back story that she was trained in Cuba. It worked. But if you say its not possible then I'll take your word for it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

The TV spy series Alias had a top female Russian spy played by black woman Gina Torres with the back story that she was trained in Cuba. It worked. But if you say its not possible then I'll take your word for it.

Yes but that's the character's back-story, so it's fine.

You can't CHANGE an established character's back story once you've established it, without doing a reboot. You break the canon and in doing so kill the immersion for many people... it's that simple.

If they want a black (or any other race) Bond, in my view, they have two paths they can take:

1) Introduce another agent and explain that "James Bond" is actually one of a selection of anonymous alias titles given to agents in an upcoming Bond film; feature the new agent heavily to get people invested, and then kill off the current Bond at the end and have that new agent take on the 007 code and "James Bond" name. Controversial? Sure... but perfectly acceptable narrative-wise.

2) Reboot the series again, make a new origins movie and brand new interpretation of the source material. Then you can basically do whatever you want with any character you want.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but that's the character's back-story, so it's fine.

You can't CHANGE an established character's back story once you've established it, without doing a reboot. You break the canon and in doing so kill the immersion for many people... it's that simple.

If they want a black (or any other race) Bond, in my view, they have two paths they can take:

1) Introduce another agent and explain that "James Bond" is actually one of a selection of anonymous alias titles given to agents in an upcoming Bond film; feature the new agent heavily to get people invested, and then kill off the current Bond at the end and have that new agent take on the 007 code and "James Bond" name. Controversial? Sure... but perfectly acceptable narrative-wise.

2) Reboot the series again, make a new origins movie and brand new interpretation of the source material. Then you can basically do whatever you want with any character you want.

THere are any number of ways to introduce a new Bond I'm merely pointing out to anyone who thinks its impossible that it most definitely isnt impossible. Dennis Haysbert played the leader of a crack special forces team in the Unit, he had no problems blending into certain areas as apparently that is a major issue too.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but that's the character's back-story, so it's fine.

You can't CHANGE an established character's back story once you've established it, without doing a reboot. You break the canon and in doing so kill the immersion for many people... it's that simple.

If they want a black (or any other race) Bond, in my view, they have two paths they can take:

1) Introduce another agent and explain that "James Bond" is actually one of a selection of anonymous alias titles given to agents in an upcoming Bond film; feature the new agent heavily to get people invested, and then kill off the current Bond at the end and have that new agent take on the 007 code and "James Bond" name. Controversial? Sure... but perfectly acceptable narrative-wise.

2) Reboot the series again, make a new origins movie and brand new interpretation of the source material. Then you can basically do whatever you want with any character you want.

So the vastly different looking actors who play Bond each iteration is fine but different skin colour is one step too far?

Bond is just popcorn fluff with daft stunts. Hardly something with an unchangeable backstory.

The books are an entirely different medium and canon anyway so they don't come into it anymore.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

You start by saying Idris wouldnt be a good bond due to his ethnically then slightly back track by saying Colin Salmon might be Ok.

The TV spy series Alias had a top female Russian spy played by black woman Gina Torres with the back story that she was trained in Cuba. It worked. But if you say its not possible then I'll take your word for it.

I mentioned Colin Salmon because IF they went with a black Bond, he would make a better one than Idris. I think he's a better actor. In my humble opinion. And that's all it is, my opinion.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

I mentioned Colin Salmon because IF they went with a black Bond, he would make a better one than Idris. I think he's a better actor. In my humble opinion. And that's all it is, my opinion.

Lets go with the best actor available who happens to be black.