[Ammi]

...the whole family was thought of as 'the embodiment of evil', not fitting into their 'nice Christian community' ..(and they are an odd family..)...and yeah, Steven burned the cat, which was an evil thing to do and as Josy said, he was already going to be convicted for the gun incident...maybe with the rape, they saw an opportunity to have him imprisoned for longer..?...the artist's impression/drawing of the rapist was then manipulated also to be Steven from his photograph, almost a tracing of it...so maybe all of it/both crimes more personal and ..(yes maybe them thinking that it had to be Steven..)...because who else would commit these evil acts other than this 'evil family'..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Drew.

Far too many situations where they should have done things but they didn't. It really does seem like they were after Steven from the start and had no interest in anything or anyone else.

..(I think..)...since he jumped out in front of his cousin's car with the gun and they felt that he wasn't someone who should be a free man and best behind bars...

[Niamh.]

6 years of the rape sentence was for that crime he did commit Ammi, they didn't mention that in the documentary as far as I remember

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..(I think..)...since he jumped out in front of his cousin's car with the gun and they felt that he wasn't someone who should be a free man and best behind bars...

He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

..that's what I mean though..(sorry, I'm not explaining very well/I'm tired..)...an unhinged creep and burning the cat as well, who knows what he was capable of/not someone to feel safe around...and the whole family really were thought of as evil...so it felt safer to have him in prison for longer than the 6 years if they could, with the rape charge as well..?...and then when Teresa was murdered and it was know that she had visited him, another way to get this unhinged creep back in prison where they thought he belonged for the rest of his life...

[Niamh.]

Mmm yeah I know what you're saying Ammi, just because of the type of person that he seems to be I find it hard to have that much sympathy for him and I do have my doubts about his innocence as well. Brendan I do have a lot of sympathy for though.

Oh also I did look up about those blood sample vials after Josy said that nurses explanation for the needle hole in the top and apparently all those vials have holes in them, that's always how they put the blood in

[Ammi]

Mmm yeah I know what you're saying Ammi, just because of the type of person that he seems to be I find it hard to have that much sympathy for him and I do have my doubts about his innocence as well. Brendan I do have a lot of sympathy for though.

Oh also I did look up about those blood sample vials after Josy said that nurses explanation for the needle hole in the top and apparently all those vials have holes in them, that's always how they put the blood in


..I do know what you mean Niamh, I don't really feel any differently in terms of him doing some pretty disturbing stuff and was going to be sentenced to some imprisonment anyway...sympathy for him is much harder to feel but for obvious reasons, quite easy to feel with Brendan/because of his vulnerabilities...and for us I think that also comes into it/emotions/empathies etc..because we're not only looking 'black and white' and unattached...but that's what the police/justice system have to be though, for them it can't be about things like 'well we think he's a danger to the public and has to be in prison'/type thing, even if they were right about that, he has to have actually done the crime and they have to be convinced of that based on actual evidence, not manipulation of evidence, regardless of what a creepy person he is...otherwise to me, it would just feel like not that much different from vigilantism...


...it's been making me think as well and comparing it to those wrongs we see when police shoot to kill very readily and we think when it wasn't necessary to kill that person...?..and sometimes with those things, we can be told, oh they weren't a very nice person anyway, they'd done this and that and held up at gunpoint one time etc...but those things had no bearing on their being killed though..(except maybe to the police officer..)...maybe those things had a bearing to them when they saw their opportunity to shoot to kill...?..and that would be all kinds of wrong...because then police officers/departments/justice systems etc just become the opposite of the very thing that they're meant to uphold in their oaths....and breach all trust we have in them and have to have in them....

[Ammi]

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking.....with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking.....with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

Well yeah but there's a difference between that Jehovahs witness being found a mile from your house and Teresa Halbachs burned remains found on his doorstep pretty much

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

He actually ran her off the road with his car, pulled the gun on her and tried to get her in his car but he let her go when he realised one of her kids was in the car with her. He does sound like an unhinged creep tbf

everyone in that town seems unhinged and creepy and beyond belief to people like you and me. but the rest of the town is not in jail.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..mind you, there's also the thing that I'm also thinking.....with all of the confusing and conflicting things in this/in terms of evidence and focusing on suspicions there...am I not paying attention to the most important and crucial piece of evidence that he did kill her because we know that Teresa was there, that he directly spoke to her and that no one ever saw her leave ...

if your postman got killed right after he came to your house, does that mean you killed him just because your neighbor didn't see him leave after he delivered your mail?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

everyone in that town seems unhinged and creepy and beyond belief to people like you and me. but the rest of the town is not in jail.

Yeah lol I know, I'm just not 100% certain that he didn't do it or was involved in some way but I know there should have been plenty of reasonable doubt

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by lostalex

if you're post man got killed right after he came to your house, does that mean you killed him just because your neighbor didn't see him leave after he delivered your mail?

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

Jehovah's witnesses, postmen, cats... what next Ammi? It's a massacre.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I did kill him though, he was late a bit too often for my liking...

Yet another Twist in the tail..Making a Murder 2 - Forum Discussion thread about Avery outs another Killer

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's purely circumstantial though, it doesn't actually mean anything, so it's not really "good" evidence at all.

Like... let's say, a Jehovah's Witness comes to your house. You're feeling particularly soft that day so you let them in to bang on about jesus and trees and whatever, and your neighbour across the street sees them enter your house. They're there for 10 minutes doing their god stuff, and then they leave, and you never see them again. Your neighbour who saw them entering has gone to take a **** at this point, and doesn't see them leave. 2 days later, that Jehovah's Witness turns up dead in a shallow grave a mile from your house. Loads of people in the area are interviewed and, it turns out on the timeline, the last time this person was seen was when they entered YOUR house. No one ever saw them leave...

How do you feel now Ammi?? What do you have against Jehovah's Witnesses anyway! I mean I know they're annoying and creepy but their hearts are in the right place. They just want to save you from damnation Ammi. And you murder them in cold blood!

..I killed the Jehovah's Witness right after I killed the postman because I only do part time, so have to catch up on my work days and fit lots in....yeah, it wasn't so much that I felt that, that it was crucial evidence but more trying to shake off the focus that I've had and whether I was missing pints in doing that...you know how you can often miss things while you're focus is on one thing and mine from the beginning has been on innocence...I've never for one moment been swayed to guilty, so I was trying to see if I could do that really...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Jehovah's witnesses, postmen, cats... what next Ammi? It's a massacre.

..it was the voices in my head, you know when I read stuff/characters...actually it was your voice so don't play the innocent with me, you're just trying to frame me/I know your game ...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yet another Twist in the tail..Making a Murder 2 - Forum Discussion thread about Avery outs another Killer

.....yeah, I reckon we'll get this thing solved before the weekend, I don't know why it's taking them so long....

[Ammi]

..I'm going to frame Drew for the postman though...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it was the voices in my head, you know when I read stuff/characters...actually it was your voice so don't play the innocent with me, you're just trying to frame me/I know your game ...

I've actually hidden a small speaker in your house, I just send messages through occasionally.

"Ammiiii, Ammiiiii... this is your head voices speaking... kill, kill, kill, kill..."

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I'm going to frame Drew for the postman though...

I think this is going to be a difficult one to pull off. Given that you have already basically confessed to this killing. And also confessed the fact that you're going to try to frame someone.

To have any chance of success, you'll need to get the same judge & jurors as the Avery trial.

"I did it. I killed them. Here is a detailed explanation of how, why, and when, and also a map to the burial locations of several other anonymous homeless victims that I used for practice."

"We find the defendant NOT GUILTY case dismissed."

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've actually hidden a small speaker in your house, I just send messages through occasionally.

"Ammiiii, Ammiiiii... this is your head voices speaking... kill, kill, kill, kill..."

..I knew straight away that it was your voice from that irritating little whiny thing you do......

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think this is going to be a difficult one to pull off. Given that you have already basically confessed to this killing. And also confessed the fact that you're going to try to frame someone.

To have any chance of success, you'll need to get the same judge & jurors as the Avery trial.

"I did it. I killed them. Here is a detailed explanation of how, why, and when, and also a map to the burial locations of several other anonymous homeless victims that I used for practice."

"We find the defendant NOT GUILTY case dismissed."

..oh, I need to kill more people to get this right I think...I have a couple of guys here atm doing some stuff so I'll go and see where I left my gun...and get the marigolds on to clean up the stains...

[Josy]

Someone apparently did see Theresa leave, a lorry driver that fills his,tank up just outside avery road.

There's also a video on YouTube with one of the police saying zipperers was her last stop instead of averys.

Not sure what to believe tbh

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Josy

Someone apparently did see Theresa leave, a lorry driver that fills his,tank up just outside avery road.

There's also a video on YouTube with one of the police saying zipperers was her last stop instead of averys.

Not sure what to believe tbh

...were these things known through the court case/not called up as witnesses..or is it what has been said after the conviction, do you know..?..