[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How would this work? I believe in god and he doesn't, did you forget that?

Apologies, I didn't realise LT doesn't have sexual relations with believers.

But by all means continue to respond to my posts with unnecessarily moody tones.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Ah - If YOU had started this thread topic - or most other members - I would have no qualms Niamh, but L.T. ?

For a man who professes to deny God and religion as much as he does, a random perusal through this forum will produce more posts and threads by LT than ANY other member, and we ALL know why.

But - alas - I cannot resist entering him.

Informed consent kirk! Informed consent!

Ahh who am I kidding. We all know that with LT, consent is always implied. He has a T shirt that sez so.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Good they have had a turn and now its our turn

I would rather you tried to say why you think your god is invisible. There is not a thread on Tibb that does not contain elements of levity, this is no different and you must accept that people find your religions as well as all others as absurd even if you dont and you think its unacceptable

You are not interested in what I think about God. What can I say to you? You've all (by that I mean all the atheists) have decided that nothing from the Bible (or any other religious writing I'm assuming) is acceptable, so that leads us back to faith. And you have none. So how can I explain to you what faith is? It's pointless. You reserve the right to ridicule and if I protest I'm "shutting down the conversation". Like there is a conversation....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.


---------------


yes I know TS etc exist as this is an internet forum and i am part of it and the evidence is plain and simple that others on here are humans who are on phones or in houses on keyboards posting.


There is no evidence apart from some highly questionable ancient copied scrolls that a god exists

Yes there are plenty of parts of the OT that you could use to say "hang on this old tribesman saw god" but using the bible as evidence is as TS states a bit useless


The main reason that gods are invisible is because that way the lie can continue and men can say they saw god to gain power and influence

If you have any video or photos of any of the gods please post them as this will be better evidence that we can analyse

In 3,000 years time, if some of your descendants are sitting around discussing an ancient, long gone reality called TIBB, which some people said was myth and made up nonsense which had never really existed, and your descendants produced yellowed printed copies of some of my posts to you - Wouldn't those doubters present, say; "That's no proof Tibb existed etc...?"

Let's say YOU were alive in 3,000 years time, how would YOU prove that T.S or Niamh or me existed and were real?

You KNOW we were real. You KNOW our writings were real, but HOW do you PROVE it to others who were NOT around at the time?

You would have only your own testimony and any printed copies of some of the threads - which is EXACTLY all the ancient peoples of differing religions have; their written evidence of what they experienced.

So it would be left up to others in future generations to decide for themselves whether they believed you or not.

Wouldn't it?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.

God 'communicated' via his Angels to many people in the Old Testament, and to his Prophets and many others, by a form of what we now term 'telepathy' which they - in their limited knowledge termed 'dreams' or 'visions'.

Yet God DID physically appear on numerous occasions to others in the Old Testament:
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Noah and his wife and sons.
Abraham
Sarah
Hagar
Ishmael
Rebekah
Joseph
Jacob
Solomon
Job
Isaiah
Micaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Nebuchadnezza
Shadrach, Meshach,Abed-Nego
Belshazzar and company of ,1000 lords at feast
Daniel
Amos
Jonah
Habakkuk
Zechariah
Elijah
Elisha
David

And let's not forget the most famous example of man meeting a visible God; Moses, who came back down Sinai after receiving the Commandments, and was transfigured and his skin 'glowing' and 'shining':

Exodus 34:29

"29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him.

31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them.

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai".

And this is NOT the only time those who 'met' God were transfigured and became 'Shining Ones'.

In the New Testament, GOD appears before EVERYONE, from the Israelites to the Romans and others, in the form of Jesus of Nazareth - The Christ or Messiah.

YOU are looking and approching this subject through very ordinary HUMAN eyes, and within the very strict and narrow parameters of knowledge which even the most intellectual and learned of humans are unfortunately shackled by.

WHY - if God exists (and I KNOW that he does) - should we humans dare to know HIS mind, or understand HIS works?

The most intellectal, scientific or creative of us, fail miserably when attempting to understand a concept so unimaginable and unfathomable as God, and we close our feeble minds altogether, or hide behind Darwin's increasingly discredited and flawed 'Origin of Species' or the error-riddled sweeping presumptions of Dawkins, or we fall in 'lock, stock, and barrel' with the 'God was an Alien' types of theories, because Aliens (which I also firmly believe in the existence of) are more 'technological' and therefore dovetail more neatly into our 'scientific' mindsets.

The text of the Bible and other scriptures may at times appear self-contradictory or to paint God as a murderous, wrathful, and positively evil deity, but this is a HUGE error being repeatedly made on here by 'Religion bashers' and 'Atheists', because they are confusing the WORD of God with the word of God as corrupted and altered over thousands of years by countless corrupt MEN for their own very HUMAN ends.

In Walter Millers great post-nuclear dystopian Science Fiction masterpiece "A Canticle for Leibowitz", the monk Liebowitz finds a tattered fragment of an ordinary pre-apocolypse shopping list - including 'pastrami' - and this is subsequently hailed as a 'sacred relic'.

A mistake in perception and translation - yes.

But proof that whoever wrote that list EXISTED and that it had an original purpose.

Do not deny God's message because we are not yet equipped to understand it.

And don't blame God for Man's doing.

Good post from a believers perspective.
But the way i look at it is from a perspective of seeing all religions as credible as each other.I have not read all of the bible.I do have a bible app on my phone and will read parts of it on occasion.I find it fascinating.An amazing look at how some people thought two thousand or so years ago.

But what exactly is it that makes the bible anymore credible than the other religious texts?
I also have a dvd of university lectures on ancient Egypt.They were extremely religious people and when you study it you can see how their religion began from ritual burial in the very early days(thousands of years before Christianity) and how it evolved and new ideas came in and then old ideas brought back and so on.
You can also see some ideas from back then in the newer religions.
You can see how Christianity evolved from Judaism and then Islam a little later.
So why Christianity the 'real' or 'true' religion?
To me it is just one of many.

Now life on other planets i do believe.I don't just think it's a possibility i actually think it's a probability in an ever expanding and infinite(as far as we know) universe.Infact if the universe is infinite then is'nt it actually an impossibility that there is'nt more life in the universe?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

In 3,000 years time, if some of your descendants are sitting around discussing an ancient, long gone reality called TIBB, which some people said was myth and made up nonsense which had never really existed, and your descendants produced yellowed printed copies of some of my posts to you - Wouldn't those doubters present, say; "That's no proof Tibb existed etc...?"

Let's say YOU were alive in 3,000 years time, how would YOU prove that T.S or Niamh or me existed and were real?

You KNOW we were real. You KNOW our writings were real, but HOW do you PROVE it to others who were NOT around at the time?

You would have only your own testimony and any printed copies of some of the threads - which is EXACTLY all the ancient peoples of differing religions have; their written evidence of what they experienced.

So it would be left up to others in future generations to decide for themselves whether they believed you or not.

Wouldn't it?

They would be printed from a computer with a date and a source and could be traced and verified. If in 100 years a 137 year old Neem was asked to recall some Tibb conversations and she did and a person wrote them down and then 200 years later that was passed on to another person and they copied it and then it went to a council who decided what bits to keep and what not and then it was transliterated and copied again and finally it was published it may not be the best way to recall Tibb




but the kicker is Kirk, the non supernatural parts of your bible not many people have much issue with, the fake supernatural stuff is the part that no one believes because they were added to get people on board and to follow the cult.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheists...-or-Theism.htm

I would urge you to read this brief article that is relevant in this debate

[joeysteele]

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Apologies, I didn't realise LT doesn't have sexual relations with believers.

But by all means continue to respond to my posts with unnecessarily moody tones.

Wow does your religion give you insight into hormonal fluctuations of females over the internet? That's cool, can I change my mind I'm in!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.

so by that token you are just agnostic to everything

zombies, dragons, moomins, Bigfoot etc


you are open to everything being real


So when your child says Dad I am worried there may be a monster under my bed your response will be "well darling i am keeping an open mind to the possibility that their may be a large monster under your bed, on the other hand there may not be, if you think there is then chances are there is...sleep tight"


Good luck with bedtime...

[Niamh.]

LT have you always been without a Religion or did you inherit one?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

LT have you always been without a Religion or did you inherit one?

No I was born and raised as a Christian

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No I was born and raised as a Christian

Same, probably unavoidable given where we live Geography plays a massive part in what people believe or are taught to believe

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No I was born and raised as a Christian

And yet you still dare to question anything? Who did your conditioning?! Give me their name, heads will roll!!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The African Anglican church are along with other Christian fellowships in the prohibition of gay marriage, they aid to maintain their stranglehold.
How can making a positive difference in one persons life at the expense of another be right?
If you don't care about motives are you not intentionally blinkering yourself? I'm sure the church are very happy this delusion is so popular.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9193593.html

...I believe it's already established that it's the person who interprets their religion and their beliefs and many, many people of faith take the positives from it and only the positives to apply in their own lives and to help others...which was what I was quoting in the post I quoted...(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)...


In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior?

..that I wouldn't see any difference in a good person who helped others, whether they had a faith/belief or not and neither would it make any difference to the lives that they helped....if you feel it's a better way for that help not to be given at all or received at all by those who desperately need it, because of any negatives that aren't practised by those people, then that's your prerogative to feel that way..that people of religion should never to good or think of others because.......

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I believe it's already established that it's the person who interprets their religion and their beliefs and many, many people of faith take the positives from it and only the positives to apply in their own lives and to help others...which was what I was quoting in the post I quoted...(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)...


In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior?

..that I wouldn't see any difference in a good person who helped others, whether they had a faith/belief or not and neither would it make any difference to the lives that they helped....if you feel it's a better way for that help not to be given at all or received at all by those who desperately need it, because of any negatives that aren't practised by those people, then that's your prerogative to feel that way..that people of religion should never to good or think of others because.......

(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)

I knew what? No matter what good work is being done by good people if the organisation appears to have a corrupting agenda then it's perfectly logical to question the motives, it could even negate the good work undertaken.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

so by that token you are just agnostic to everything

zombies, dragons, moomins, Bigfoot etc


you are open to everything being real


So when your child says Dad I am worried there may be a monster under my bed your response will be "well darling i am keeping an open mind to the possibility that their may be a large monster under your bed, on the other hand there may not be, if you think there is then chances are there is...sleep tight"


Good luck with bedtime...

I am well used to and expect nothing else but rather petty remarks in any of your responses to any of my posts.

This thread that you started is about God/s and things likely related to God/s which is what I had my content of contribution to the issue kept on.

Nowhere does the pathetic response of monsters under the beds have any relevance whatsoever but if you wish to cheapen and destroy the point of your own thread, who am I to stop you.
For claiming to being an Atheist, you seem far more obsessed with respect as to religion and God/s than anyone else.

[Jamie89]

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?

The question of 'why is it acceptable to make fun of religious people' is a really interesting debate though. Mainly because the most common insult that usually gets thrown at religious people is that the whole concept is stupid (the implication being that the religious person is stupid for believing), and yet we know that intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone has faith. You get plenty of stupid and intelligent people on both sides of the argument. So how does someone who is a non believer reconcile in their minds that even though they believe the concept of a religion is stupid, someone with equal or even greater intelligence to them might believe in said religion? Does this not automatically negate the 'religions are stupid' idea, and if so, does that not make it a meaningless insult? In which case, why is that acceptable during a debate about religion? (Comedy/satire etc is different and in context is perfectly acceptable as a way of poking fun at anyone imo, but I'm referring to making fun of religion during a debate.) Most of the questioning on here seems to be aimed at believers so there's one for the atheists (Personally I don't believe in god but I can't know for certain that I'm right. I'm stupid though, so )

[the truth]

as well as the Bible itself and the many other scrolls that didn't make the Bible and the various relics there is plenty of proof that many biblical people existed. including pilate , saul and many more. They've even found replicas of similar arks buried in the dead sea.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am well used to and expect nothing else but rather petty remarks in any of your responses to any of my posts.

This thread that you started is about God/s and things likely related to God/s which is what I had my content of contribution to the issue kept on.

Nowhere does the pathetic response of monsters under the beds have any relevance whatsoever but if you wish to cheapen and destroy the point of your own thread, who am I to stop you.
For claiming to being an Atheist, you seem far more obsessed with respect as to religion and God/s than anyone else.

You seem to thin believing in a god is superior to believing in a monster or a dragon

can you elaborate on your hierarchy of belief in the supernatural?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by the truth

as well as the Bible itself and the many other scrolls that didn't make the Bible and the various relics there is plenty of proof that many biblical people existed. including pilate , saul and many more. They've even found replicas of similar arks buried in the dead sea.

No one doubts t there are many historical aspects to the bible

its just the supernatural stuff that was added to make it awe inspiring that is in question

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.

A good post Joey - and balanced as usual.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?

The question of 'why is it acceptable to make fun of religious people' is a really interesting debate though. Mainly because the most common insult that usually gets thrown at religious people is that the whole concept is stupid (the implication being that the religious person is stupid for believing), and yet we know that intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone has faith. You get plenty of stupid and intelligent people on both sides of the argument. So how does someone who is a non believer reconcile in their minds that even though they believe the concept of a religion is stupid, someone with equal or even greater intelligence to them might believe in said religion? Does this not automatically negate the 'religions are stupid' idea, and if so, does that not make it a meaningless insult? In which case, why is that acceptable during a debate about religion? (Comedy/satire etc is different and in context is perfectly acceptable as a way of poking fun at anyone imo, but I'm referring to making fun of religion during a debate.) Most of the questioning on here seems to be aimed at believers so there's one for the atheists (Personally I don't believe in god but I can't know for certain that I'm right. I'm stupid though, so )

A great post Jamie.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?/snip

Not really as the question was why is it with all the thousands of gods that man has created for himself are they all, and i cant off my head think of any that are not, invisible?"

Its not just at the god you dont believe in (and remember that every "believer" in this thread is 100% atheist about every other god )

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

You seem to thin believing in a god is superior to believing in a monster or a dragon

can you elaborate on your hierarchy of belief in the supernatural?

You know something,with absolute full respect, I see absolutely no point of of doing so whatsoever just for you to come back with your usual insulting put downs of those with opinions you disagree with.

With respect why you ask questions about religion and God/s is a mystery to me because all you do is use any answers from others to put down those that may look at religion and God/s more positively or open mindedly than you.