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Northern Monkey · 25-02-2016, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

Wrong.It is to control our own immigration policy and get the people we need rather than leaving the door wide open.Nobody wants to stop immigration.

kirklancaster · 25-02-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Trumps wall will have a door in it .... yet he is unchristian

Poor Leathertrumpet.

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

We won't see migrants change from outside Europe, why would we? but we will possibly see an exodus or perhaps a lack of people coming to live and work here from other European countries. Britain doesn't produce enough construction workers and so if we can't get more permanent construction workers from within Europe, we will have to get them in from further afield.

Northern Monkey · 25-02-2016, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We won't see migrants change from outside Europe, why would we? but we will possibly see an exodus or perhaps a lack of people coming to live and work here from other European countries. Britain doesn't produce enough construction workers and so if we can't get more permanent construction workers from within Europe, we will have to get them in from further afield.

No we'd just let in as many as we need.Poles are queueing up to come here aswell as people from many EU countries.

joeysteele · 25-02-2016, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them.

It provides stability. What price can we associate with that? How many unneeded wars will it stop?

Money really isn't the be all of everything, there are more fundamental principles at stake

Very strong points.

waterhog · 25-02-2016, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Very strong points.

I am with Jamie foreman aka derek - outtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt sort out this country and get our ship in order.

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannashag

25 February 2016
"The Remain campaign is threatening that the EU will cut funding to UK charities if we vote to leave the EU – but what sort of organisation punishes charities for political reasons?" asked Leave.EU co-chairman Richard Tice.

"One which is only interested in buying support, not helping people, and that's nothing for the Remain campaign to crow about.

"Besides, as net contributors to the EU budget, this funding all comes from UK taxpayers, really. They're trying to bribe us with our own money."

Between 2014-2020 the EU was/is giving back £80 billion on a 'raise to match' basis to charities across the UK. In 2014 medical research was awarded €947 million; that's more than any other country in Europe.

The question should be, will a 'go it alone government' continue to subsidize charities with £billions?

Why would a union that we are no longer in, continue to give money to our charities?

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

No we'd just let in as many as we need.Poles are queueing up to come here aswell as people from many EU countries.

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?

kirklancaster · 25-02-2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Very strong points.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????
HOW are they 'very strong points'?

What about the points in my response?

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8534992]"I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them."

The text which I have emboldened BOTS may be the IDEOLOGY of the EU, but the REALITY is far removed from that ideal.

Look no further than Greece.

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems.

Lending money is NOT distributing collective wealth in order to 'safeguard' a member country - it is only INCREASING that poorer country's fiscal problems when it struggles to REPAY the loan.

What did the EU do then?

LEND GREECE MORE MONEY SO THAT IT COULD USE VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE NEW LOAN TO REPAY THE INSTALLMENT ON THE ORIGINAL LOAN.

The only beneficiaries of such financial loan-sharking are those who lend the money in the first place.

True 'safeguarding' by the EU of poorer countries who are in trouble, would have seen massive reallocation of some of its massive collective funds as GRANTS to help underpin such a country as Greece to see it through its troubles, but this is just a Europhile 'Pipe Dream' because the EU is NOT one UNITED EUROPE as it pretends to be, and there is NO one 'FISCAL BROTHERHOOD' with which to attend to such problematic countries needs - just greed and more greed.

As for; "Invading" countries; With a very conservative estimate of a TOTAL of over 102,000 migrants in 2015 to just TWO COUNTRIES and ignoring others - 54,660 in Italy and 46,150 in poor embattled Greece - a number in excess of those who landed in 2014 - I would say that most of Europe -- The UK included -- is ALREADY BEING INVADED.
.................................................. ..........

Are we now playing the usual game of ignoring FACTUAL posts which do not 'sit' with our own opinions? Some 'debate'.

BOTS has NO strong points at all in the post you praise - It is all just more uncorroborated spiel.

kirklancaster · 25-02-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

At the moment they are but then we don't have any border restrictions to EU migrants at the moment. On average, migrant workers will stay here between four and nine years and not just for the summer fruit picking season. Why would they bother if they have to jump through hoops to live and work here? Why not just go to France, Spain or Germany where there are no borders?

Then why not just let them DO that?

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

bots · 25-02-2016, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Then why not just let them DO that?

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

We always have needed immigrants to add to the economy in times of growth though, and they will no longer come as they will have been pronounced unwelcome, why should they

kirklancaster · 25-02-2016, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

We always have needed immigrants to add to the economy in times of growth though, and they will no longer come as they will have been pronounced unwelcome, why should they

Are these the same immigrants who tear down wire fences and attack the police and lorry drivers in France to get to the UK when they are not welcome because they are illegal?

As Paul says, there will be plenty of immigrant workers allowed into the UK if we exit the EU - only they will be skilled, security vetted ones who are here LEGALLY.

bots · 25-02-2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Are these the same immigrants who tear down wire fences and attack the police and lorry drivers in France to get to the UK when they are not welcome because they are illegal?

As Paul says, there will be plenty of immigrant workers allowed into the UK if we exit the EU - only they will be skilled, security vetted ones who are here LEGALLY.

This is a complete red herring though. you are referring to ILLEGAL immigrants. They will not say .... fair cop, the UK is no longer in the EU so we will stop trying to go there

We will still have the same levels of illegal immigration in or out of the EU

MTVN · 25-02-2016, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I remember you saying. Its really worth attending such debates if you can because you get a lot more out of them than anything you can read online.

Is this a load of hype or an important part of future history we are living through?

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.

bots · 25-02-2016, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.

Its a huge change, the UK can now say ... nope, we are not going to implement that law or take any notice of it if it comes from Europe. We can now, legally, suit ourselves

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Then why not just let them DO that?

We survived and built up a thriving Nation BEFORE the EU and BEFORE mass influxes of Easter Europeans.

Do not believe the scaremongering from Corporations and others who have vested interests in remaining in the EU.

I don't listen to scaremongering Kirk. If I did, I'd believe those who told me all the migrants are coming here to claim benefits and tax credits.

I have an uncle who runs a flower farm just outside Kings Lynn. He totally relies on migrant workers and has said that without them he's just going to have to try and sell off his land and take early retirement. He'd be happy to employ British labourers but he just can't find enough of them. He says, the one thing about migrant workers is they reliably turn up, work hard and are happy to work for a minimum wage, which it has to remain if he's going to make any margin at all. Try telling him he's going to be okay because all those English people will be clamouring for the jobs and he'd suggest putting your telephone number in his employment add and have you sit back and wait for the lack of phone calls from British people.

Oh and he often tells them that they can claim tax credit because most of them are totally unaware. What a traitor eh

joeysteele · 25-02-2016, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

It's definitely quite historic imo. Cameron's negotiation in itself was quite historic I think because it was the first time that any country has sought to reverse the trend of 'ever closer union' that the EU has been heading towards for years. People dismiss Cameron's deal but a lot of other countries see it as a massive challenge to the fundamental aims and principles of the EU.

Absolutely.
I really believe, being fair to him, that David Cameron has not only got the best deal possible at this time but he has begun a process that will in fact change the EU for the better in the future.

There are many things I think history will end up hammering David Cameron for but on this, I really believe history could record that he was in fact one the best leaders ever to have taken the EU on and won real change over time.

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster;

[B

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems. [/B]

Oops I missed this bit earlier. Good point Kirk.

The EU treated Greece appallingly and its questionable whether that country can ever recover its economy. Its clear that Germany and the rest of us learnt nothing from the treaty of Versailles and that's come at a great cost to the Greek people.

Yes, that should certainly be a lesson to us all

DemolitionRed · 25-02-2016, 07:45 PM

I've tried to edit that twice but I'm stuck!!

Kizzy · 26-02-2016, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannashag

Former Conservative leader picks his side.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ime-to-go.html

Looking at that I'd say the new junior drs contracts contravene EU working hours directives, is this preemptive?

“Can we carry on with an organisation that has a multi-billion pound budget but not enough focus on controlling spending and shutting down programmes that haven’t worked?" - David Cameron in his January 2013 Bloomberg speech

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ds-system-10bn

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/...e-off-3590699/

kirklancaster · 26-02-2016, 07:36 AM

STRIPPING AWAY THE EUROPHILE B.S. AND LIES #1

"THREE MILLION JOBS WILL BE LOST IF WE EXIT THE EU"

EU supporters have repeatedly claimed that if we were to exit the EU, at least 3 million jobs would be lost in the UK, but this is yet more DISHONESTY.

The false claim hails from a 1999 report from the National Institute of
Economic and Social Research which determined that 'Three million British people are INVOLVED with exporting products to the EU'.

These jobs depend upon continuation of trade with the EU - NOT on continuation of our EU membership.

This lie has been constantly repeated in their scaremongering propaganda by Europhiles DESPITE the National Institute of Economic and Social Research Director, Martin Weale, repudiating their claim and describing it as ‘pure Goebbels’.

So those 'three million jobs' depend on TRADE not on EU MEMBERSHIP. But would that trade still continue if we left the EU?

YOU CAN BET YOUR LIFE ON IT. And here's why:

1) The UK would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

2) We buy a lot more from the EU than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. Does anyone REALLY think that the economically ailing EU would stop trading with the UK if we left, and deprive itself of almost £1 billion pounds per week positive trading income?

3) The Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU, so even if we exit, the EU will have NO CHOICE than to continue trading with us.

4) The World Trade Organization (WTO) has rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are OBLIGED to abide. These alone would GUARANTEE the continuation of the trade upon which most of those 3 million jobs rely.

DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

DO NOT FALL FOR THE LIES AND PROPAGANDA OF THE HUGE CORPORATIONS AND ULTRA WEALTHY LANDOWNING ELITE WHO ARE THE ONLY REAL BENEFICIARIES OF REMAING IN THE EU

OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.