[Firewire]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In what sense?

It was two separate points really. I was differentiating patriotism as I can see there being two separate branches of it. Which would be the same for Welsh and Northern Irish people as well, I guess, but as I'm from Scotland I isolated that.

But I essentially mean that Scottish heritage is different to British, so I hold more of a patriotism to Scotland than the UK.

For example, the tradition of ceilidhs, Hogmanay, Robert Burns and kilts, are just some of the things associated with Scottish patriotism if we look at it from a traditional sense. Or we could look at free education, free prescriptions or even landscape. Those are things I would associate with patriotism. I love Scotland even though I'm British. I don't know the British national anthem and I have no desire of learning it. I don't care for the Royals. I like Andy Murray. I don't like football but want Scotland to succeed if they ever play. That's all areas of patriotism.

As someone suggested, it's not about hating England. I love England. But patriotism is more than just being a "fan of the UK".

[DemolitionRed]

I'm proud of my Pict routes. I believe we have some of the most beautiful countryside in the world. Whilst the north Yorkshire moors and the highlands are chilly and damp, nothing can take away there beauty.

I'm also proud of my French routes but there is one thing I'm very aware of when in France. The Italians, Americans and Germans are loud but you seldom pick up an English accent, not because they aren't around but because they speak so quietly, as though they don't want anyone to know they are English.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Absolutely not what I mean, please don't answer for me when the question was directed at me

Ah well just say what you mean then, being so vague just causes people to have to second guess what you might be referring to.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Having lived here for a bit longer than the "recent surge for independence", I can confirm that you are wrong. The empire was indeed a product of Scotland as much as England but that's not relevant as the empire is over; meaning that we now "pick and choose" (loosely, obviously we're talking about sweeping social choice here not conscious individual choice) which parts of culture and history form the overall basis of national identity.

England, whilst it does have a lot of REGIONAL culture and many strong - but notably, distinct - regional identities... It really has no overall unifying sense of national identity OTHER than empire.

It would probably be more accurate to say that there really isn't any strongly defined sense of English culture or English patriotism. Essentially, there is British culture, Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish culture, and then a whole array of various regional English identities ("Londoner", "Yorkshireman", "Geordie" etc) and when English people talk about patriotism, what they really are referring to is British patriotism rather than English patriotism, whilst in Scotland, there are plenty of both Scottish patriots AND British patriots but they do not mean the same thing... And it is British patriotism that is rooted in Empire / Global strength.

Really this is reflective of the overall perception of Britain / British, though. For example, when filling in a form, English people are much more likely to use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably whereas "Scottish" and "British" and certainly "Irish" and "British", are more distinct descriptions.

Ok I see your point now, it probably is true that England is more a collection of regional identities whereas Scotland and Wales often seem more homogeneous. Mind you there are plenty of Scots who subscribe to the God Save the Queen, Rule Britannia brand of patriotism.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

Yeah good explanation.

[Scarlett.]

People also throw all of England together, being from the North, I'm patriotic of the North, we have different values than the Southern end, people from the North feel that we have more in common with Scotland than they do with any Southerners (hence the "take us with you" when Scotland were holding their referendum).

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Chewy

People also throw all of England together, being from the North, I'm patriotic of the North, we have different values than the Southern end, people from the North feel that we have more in common with Scotland than they do with any Southerners (hence the "take us with you" when Scotland were holding their referendum).

I agree, I am a Midlander by birth,left there when I went to Uni and stayed further North afterwards.

I find the Northern people do overall it appears hold a connection to Scotland more than the South and that doesn't surprise me.
From attitudes,I really dislike going South now,it is almost like going to another Country rather than when visiting Wales, Scotland The North and even parts of the Midlands too.
I really love the North and feel I can more identify with the values of the North.

Once in that far South of England,I just become dismayed most of the time.
I personally feel totally unable to feel comfortable in or even identify with the South now.

[Greg!]

I'm really patriotic towards Scotland. The only time I'm patriotic about the UK is during Eurovision lmao

[Greg!]

what a great wee point i have added to this debate x

[JoshBB]

I'm somewhat patriotic when Eurovision is on, and I also feel really happy when I see community events with people coming together and having little union jacks everywhere. It's completely innocent and really nice. The only time it becomes unacceptable is when people put down other cultures, religions, and ethnic backgrounds in the name of patriotism.