[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

True.

Also we do not need to be Doctors,(although I have 4 in my own Family), to look at the state of the place and see something was badly wrong here with this person.

I know if I saw anyone living that way I would instantly think they had a mental issue if not an illness.
Drinking alcohol too would blot out the issue and problem to the person drinking.

Alcohol is relatively cheap to buy and will more than likely send you off to sleep in the end, so the person is not then thinking about anything needing doing or realising anything that should be done.

Working in law,I have to try to assess what makes people do the things they do,try to find a reason for behaviour and identify any problems too.
She had to be punished for the ill treatment and neglect of the animals but maybe jail will not address the underlying issues there may be.

It is horrendous as a case,no doubt as to that.

Joey, If you want to refer to my post, please do so and stop answering other people's and covering points I've made.

I also work in the law as you know, and have done for some time. Do you honestly think ANY lawyer representing her would have allowed the case to go forward without her mental illness being taken into account? If it was taken into account, it was clearly not severe enough to stop a custodial sentence... or there was no illness.

[Kazanne]

No excuses for her from me,to let so many animals SUFFER and STARVE while she was obviously filling her own face is disgraceful,nothing mental there just one of lifes lazy sods who don't give a toss about the welfare or feelings of animals,but according to some we can do exactly what we like to them and someone will step in and 'help' us.Pffft

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

No excuses for her from me,to let so many animals SUFFER and STARVE while she was obviously filling her own face is disgraceful,nothing mental there just one of lifes lazy sods who don't give a toss about the welfare or feelings of animals,but according to some we can do exactly what we like to them and someone will step in and 'help' us.Pffft

Lovely.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

There are a lot of magnificent diagnoses going on in this thread from people with not a qualification between them. "Clearly a psychological mess". incredible the way you managed to come to that conclusion. Even Doctor Phil couldn't diagnose someone through reading about them in an article. You're amazing.

In my opinion it is perfectly clear from the pictures of the property that we are not talking about a psychologically normal individual. You might not think so, but to be frank, I believe that you are 100% wrong.

Originally Posted by Livia

Do you think this s the first time anyone had any clue that she's "mentally ill" as you have diagnosed?

Honestly... no one's allowed to criticise a woman who allowed these animals to die in a most horrific way although had plenty of money for booze. No one must call a terrorist a "monster"... I think the question is, what world are YOU living in? One where anyone can do anything and immediately someone will be worrying about the welfare of the perpetrator because they're not responsible for their own dreadful actions.

Again, it's not about this woman, it's not about not criticising her, it's not about excusing her, it's not about discussing the outcomes for HER after THIS. It is about identifying, understanding and appreciating the causes of incidents like this, which almost exclusively involve mental illness, in order to act early to stop other people from ending up in these situations. To save countless individuals - human or animal - from future suffering.

But by all means, continue to shove your fingers in your ears, bleat "burn the witch" and achieve precisely jack sh** in terms of improving social wellbeing or preventing future incidents. It's in the Tory handbook, after all.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A psycho? A psychopath? We don't assume that a psychopath is mentally ill?

... Is this a joke?

No it's not a joke I've never heard words like that used in connection to say Myra Hindley, you hear words like evil, manipulative, monster etc yes psychosis is a mental state but it doesn't mean mentally ill in the sense that you are using

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No it's not a joke I've never heard words like that used in connection to say Myra Hindley, you hear words like evil, manipulative, monster etc yes psychosis is a mental state but it doesn't mean mentally ill in the sense that you are using

Of course it does. Some mental illnesses create incredibly dangerous individuals who need to be locked away for the safety of everyone around them. This does not make them any less mentally ill.

AGAIN - that individual should of course be locked away for the safety of others. Does that mean you say "Oh whewww they're gone now we never have to think about it again!". Thankfully, no, it doesn't. People study and examine these disorders, sequences of events and consequences in huge depth. Not to excuse the person who has committed these crimes, but to identify and treat others early before they become a risk to themselves or others.

I really can't figure out what's so hard to understand about that other than - as someone said - because people have a basic knee-jerk reaction to these things where they believe that "understanding = excusing" (it doesn't) and that it's pointless (it isn't).

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Of course it does. Some mental illnesses create incredibly dangerous individuals who need to be locked away for the safety of everyone around them. This does not make them any less mentally ill.

AGAIN - that individual should of course be locked away for the safety of others. Does that mean you say "Oh whewww they're gone now we never have to think about it again!". Thankfully, no, it doesn't. People study and examine these disorders, sequences of events and consequences in huge depth. Not to excuse the person who has committed these crimes, but to identify and treat others early before they become a risk to themselves or others.

I really can't figure out what's so hard to understand about that other than - as someone said - because people have a basic knee-jerk reaction to these things where they believe that "understanding = excusing" (it doesn't) and that it's pointless (it isn't).

We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state, either way she should never own an animal again.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Cherie

We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state, either way she should never own an animal again.

Well said.

[MTVN]

I don't think its a that unusual case of someone who lost control of their life through heavy drinking and the stress brought on from her mother's illness and her pets suffered as a result of that. I see no reason why 'stick her in a psych ward' should become the default response whenever someone commits a bad crime though, that can actually do more harm than good. The prison system is quite sophisticated these days, I'm sure they'll be help available for her drinking and depression while in there and in the aftermath if she wants it and there's nothing to tell us that her mental state is so bad that prison is an inappropriate place for her.

[Alf]

I've decided to take offence to the phrase "Mentally Ill", so can we please stop using it? or come up with a term more politically correct?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state

People who actively enjoy watching animals suffering are psychologically abnormal. Are you genuinely saying that a 100% sane and rational person might find themselves torturing a bunch of animals to death? I seriously HOPE that isn't something that ever happens.

Secondly, again, we seem to be completely stuck on this idea that "understanding = excusing". It's not about whether she knew what she was doing or not, it's not about excusing her actions or saying that there shouldn't be consequences. It's not about establishing an insanity or incompetence plea to lessen her punishment, I think the outcome in this case is perfectly reasonable, if a little on the light side because I believe that she should be undergoing significant mental health treatment before being released.

The reason this consistently fails to occur in the justice system has far more to do with a lack of funding and a lack of available facility than it being unnecessary or a lack of diagnosis.

There are huge numbers of people in prison who would be less dangerous individuals on release, with less risk of reoffending and therefore less risk to the public, if they were to recieve appropriate psychiatric care whilst incarcerated. But because "that doesn't sit well with most people" we just lock them up for a while and then let them back out exactly as they were before, or worse. Mess.

either way she should never own an animal again.

I agree on that obviously but, again, it's not really the point.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Joey, If you want to refer to my post, please do so and stop answering other people's and covering points I've made.

I also work in the law as you know, and have done for some time. Do you honestly think ANY lawyer representing her would have allowed the case to go forward without her mental illness being taken into account? If it was taken into account, it was clearly not severe enough to stop a custodial sentence... or there was no illness.

Excuse me, I made a reference to mental illness and said we didn't need to be Doctors, I was making a point to legitimate posts from DemRed and TS.
I am not a Doctor but I think I can tell when someone is having a Stroke or a heart attack for instance.
So the way this woman appeared to be living would have sent alarm bells ringing I'd have thought for anyone who saw it.

AS to your 2nd point, no that should not happen and I agree Lawyers should root that out if it exists.
However too, despite Lawyers as TS said, there are many people in Prisons who should not be but who have been sentenced despite mental problems.
Good grief,even with Lawyers there are people going to Prison who are then later shown to be innocent.

From my perspective someone living like she was, I would feel they must have some mental issue if not a mental health problem.
AS a Lawyer, it is the first thing I would have checked out, do we know for sure hers did.

I condemn the case totally, she had to be punished but I was talking to DemRed and TS and their posts as to this case and mental or any otherwise issues.
I will also actually with respect answer to whom I please too on here.
Mental issues were being discussed here before your Doctor bit by TS and DemRed too,to whom I was making a point that they had,by their posts,made me look at and think again as to possibly more underlying issues to this case.

[bots]

Any judge worth his/her salt would insist on a psychiatric evaluation on presentation of the evidence. These are people who have all the facts to hand and are therefore best placed to make appropriate decisions, rather than armchair diagnosis.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I am not a Doctor but I think I can tell when someone is having a Stroke or a heart attack for instance.

Joey: "Oh my god, that man is having a heart attack! Call an ambulance!"

Livia: "I was not aware that you were a doctor, Joey..."

Joey: "I'm not a doctor..."

Livia: "Oh you're not a doctor? You have no medical training whatsoever?? Well then what makes you think you are qualified to identify when someone is having a heart attack? lol. We should leave absolutely every judgement up to only exactly the specifically qualified people in that field, so whilst you say he is having a heart attack, he may in fact just be sneezing or have a mild itch."

Joey: "He's dead. We were too late. He died of a heart attack."

Livia: "Are you a qualified coroner, Joey...?"

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I don't think its a that unusual case of someone who lost control of their life through heavy drinking and the stress brought on from her mother's illness and her pets suffered as a result of that. I see no reason why 'stick her in a psych ward' should become the default response whenever someone commits a bad crime though, that can actually do more harm than good. The prison system is quite sophisticated these days, I'm sure they'll be help available for her drinking and depression while in there and in the aftermath if she wants it and there's nothing to tell us that her mental state is so bad that prison is an inappropriate place for her.

Great if it did and wish I had your confidence MTVN but people actually come out of Prison with even drug problems they didn't have before they went in for instance or just as bad as when they went in.

Prisons are overcrowded in the main and understaffed, that makes really dealing with any addictions and mental health issues very difficult.
What you say as prison,that is definitely how it should be but there is a long way to go as to that yet.

I am horrified at this case and how she lived and the suffering of those animals.
I agree 100% she should never be allowed to have animals again, however some on here have tempered my original response and one would hope all things were looked at and considered.
Also if she needs direction to sort out any addictions or mental health issues that it will happen.
She needs to be educated too and fully understand the horrific suffering she caused to animals.
I have my doubts as to the Prison situation now, overcrowding means people can slip down further once in prison more often than not.

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

[Parmy]

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Any judge worth his/her salt would insist on a psychiatric evaluation on presentation of the evidence. These are people who have all the facts to hand and are therefore best placed to make appropriate decisions, rather than armchair diagnosis.

It doesn't always happen that is the case,unfortunately.
It is also far better if Lawyers get that all done before the trial.

It should be the case and does happen most times but many do slip through too.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by parmnion

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

Good Point ,and she would be deemed as a 'caring' person to do that,so how come she just let her animals suffer and die ? also the one who died STILL chained to it's kennel would have surely shown signs of distress,but it was left there just to die ? No,imo this woman knew these animals were suffereing.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

Yet very few people care about that because - as thoroughly demonstrated in this thread - a lot of people are more concerned with vengeance and punishment than with rehabilitation. The world sort of briefly poked its' head above the clouds for a few decades into a more enlightened socially aware state that recognised that understanding mental health an rehabilitating offenders were key aspects of improving society but, sadly, we're well and truly backsliding now. Understanding is "excusing" and rehabilitation is "cushy"... it's all punishment, wrath, an eye for an eye, people "getting what they deserve"... and folks lap it up .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

On the contrary, it was probably her mother's illness and her responsibility for her that tipped her over the edge. This is fairly common.

In fact, my own mother never really recovered from caring for her own mother in our home as she died, and it was a huge contributing factor in sparking her own severe mental health issues and alcoholism that eventually killed her too.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

People who actively enjoy watching animals suffering are psychologically abnormal. Are you genuinely saying that a 100% sane and rational person might find themselves torturing a bunch of animals to death? I seriously HOPE that isn't something that ever happens.

Secondly, again, we seem to be completely stuck on this idea that "understanding = excusing". It's not about whether she knew what she was doing or not, it's not about excusing her actions or saying that there shouldn't be consequences. It's not about establishing an insanity or incompetence plea to lessen her punishment, I think the outcome in this case is perfectly reasonable, if a little on the light side because I believe that she should be undergoing significant mental health treatment before being released.

The reason this consistently fails to occur in the justice system has far more to do with a lack of funding and a lack of available facility than it being unnecessary or a lack of diagnosis.

There are huge numbers of people in prison who would be less dangerous individuals on release, with less risk of reoffending and therefore less risk to the public, if they were to recieve appropriate psychiatric care whilst incarcerated. But because "that doesn't sit well with most people" we just lock them up for a while and then let them back out exactly as they were before, or worse. Mess.




I agree on that obviously but, again, it's not really the point.

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?

I hope she does, that is if help is needed but there are too many people in Prisons with mental issues and often they slip through the net.

The prison service is way overstretched,far too many people are in prison who shouldn't be in my view and prison staff have neither the time or facilities to first identify mental health issue needs,let alone address them correctly.

Hopefully the day will come when they are supported properly to do so but that day in my view is a good way off from what I have seen.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?

Yes, because as Joey says, the prison system is barely fit for purpose when it comes to your average petty thief.

[Amy Jade]

I'm sorry but I find it quite baffling how people want to put this horrible bitch in a mental hospital, it's not mentioned anywhere she wasn't mentally sound - if she had have been I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it along side her alcoholism. It's a pretty straightforward case of major neglect and cruelty. Yes it sounds like she's had a bad time with her mum passing but that's no excuse to leave pets to starve to death...she managed to put a bottle to her mouth she could have managed to feed an animal and there is no excuse in my eyes.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Great if it did and wish I had your confidence MTVN but people actually come out of Prison with even drug problems they didn't have before they went in for instance or just as bad as when they went in.

Prisons are overcrowded in the main and understaffed, that makes really dealing with any addictions and mental health issues very difficult.
What you say as prison,that is definitely how it should be but there is a long way to go as to that yet.

I am horrified at this case and how she lived and the suffering of those animals.
I agree 100% she should never be allowed to have animals again, however some on here have tempered my original response and one would hope all things were looked at and considered.
Also if she needs direction to sort out any addictions or mental health issues that it will happen.
She needs to be educated too and fully understand the horrific suffering she caused to animals.
I have my doubts as to the Prison situation now, overcrowding means people can slip down further once in prison more often than not.

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

Experiences vary of course but this woman has received a fairly short sentence and I imagine she will serve it at quite a low security prison where there tends to be a lot of opportunities for inmates. Even if she does not receive help while in prison there are plenty of services and medication available to anyone suffering from alcoholism or depression, it isn't necessary to consign someone to a psych ward.