[Stevep]

Originally Posted by hot2go

If Katie did that she would go up my estimation.....the fact that lot never retaliate is more tactical than anything but is extremely boring .....what person on this forum would just lie back and keep taking it on the chin ? I mean, c'mon, I can't imagine anyone on here putting up with it...I certainly wouldn't, it's pathetic

Not everything comes down to tactics. It's basic knowledge that we are all built differently and that certain people, principally it seems those in Renee's group, just don't have enough courage to stand up for themselves, particularly when it comes to standing up to such domineering figures such as Bear. I agree though that anyone that does decide to do it would win plenty of votes.

[hot2go]

Originally Posted by Stevep

Not everything comes down to tactics. It's basic knowledge that we are all built differently and that certain people, principally it seems those in Renee's group, just don't have enough courage to stand up for themselves, particularly when it comes to standing up to such domineering figures such as Bear. I agree though that anyone that does decide to do it would win plenty of votes.

People who don't have the strength of character to stand up for themselves shouldn't go on Big Brother IMO...you're right that not everyone has to shout and scream but some of this lot don't even voice an opinion or have a sense of humour with the ones they do get along with. If someone poured food over Sam Fox kitchen at home she would not just let them...if someone made a cocktail in Ricky's garden with all the coffe he wouldn't say nothing....they are not being real and that is tactical.

[Ellen]

Originally Posted by hot2go

People who don't have the strength of character to stand up for themselves shouldn't go on Big Brother IMO...you're right that not everyone has to shout and scream but some of this lot don't even voice an opinion or have a sense of humour with the ones they do get along with. If someone poured food over Sam Fox kitchen at home she would not just let them...if someone made a cocktail in Ricky's garden with all the coffe he wouldn't say nothing....they are not being real and that is tactical.

Yes but if someone did that in your own home there is no camera's to see you slap the crap out of someone for trashing your kitchen!

[hot2go]

Originally Posted by Ellen

Yes but if someone did that in your own home there is no camera's to see you slap the crap out of someone for trashing your kitchen!

But the cameras are the key to how this thing works....take Katie for example, she's come up from the back of the race to a front position for finally being real and speaking her mind.....she's wasnt abusive or slapping anyone but for once she wasn't being totally passive..
I would say the big advantage of the cameras is that unlike real life, they can vent what they think to someone anyway they like and there are security guards on site 24/7 to protect them.
I have to agree with Lewis when he advised her that to get to the final in this particular Big Brother she needs to show more of that side of her personality.....he's such a patronising prick but he was correct when he said that.

[Ellen]

Originally Posted by hot2go

But the cameras are the key to how this thing works....take Katie for example, she's come up from the back of the race to a front position for finally being real and speaking her mind.....she's wasnt abusive or slapping anyone but for once she wasn't being totally passive..
I would say the big advantage of the cameras is that unlike real life, they can vent what they think to someone anyway they like and there are security guards on site 24/7 to protect them.
I have to agree with Lewis when he advised her that to get to the final in this particular Big Brother she needs to show more of that side of her personality.....he's such a patronising prick but he was correct when he said that.

She has not been herself because of the camera's, she has been a wall flower all the way through but after the speech she now has a go

[hot2go]

Originally Posted by Ellen

She has not been herself because of the camera's, she has been a wall flower all the way through but after the speech she now has a go

Yes she's finally stepping up but I think it's too little too late myself. But it's better than tears...her tears saw Ricky make threats of violence towards Bear and played a part in Biggins downfall.

[Stevep]

Originally Posted by hot2go

People who don't have the strength of character to stand up for themselves shouldn't go on Big Brother IMO...you're right that not everyone has to shout and scream but some of this lot don't even voice an opinion or have a sense of humour with the ones they do get along with. If someone poured food over Sam Fox kitchen at home she would not just let them...if someone made a cocktail in Ricky's garden with all the coffe he wouldn't say nothing....they are not being real and that is tactical.

Yes, some may be playing it tactically somewhat but you can't keep mentioning tactics in a bad light if you are a fan of Bear who is clearly playing a game and has admitted as much. Btw, i don't believe the example you've used really stands up as an example of tactics, it's quite clear that you'd react differently if someone was behaving like that in your own home with your own personal possessions.

Going back to my original point, Katie has stood up for herself here but it's worth noting that it's Heavy in the firing line and not Bear, why? Well my opinion would be, as i said earlier, each and every individual has a different level of confidence and Katie quite clearly feels confident enough to confront Heavy for being wasteful but not Bear when he had been. That in itself proves to a degree that it's not always tactical when certain people stand back but more so down to the level of courage they possess.

[hot2go]

Originally Posted by Stevep

Yes, some may be playing it tactically somewhat but you can't keep mentioning tactics in a bad light if you are a fan of Bear who is clearly playing a game and has admitted as much. Btw, i don't believe the example you've used really stands up as an example of tactics, it's quite clear that you'd react differently if someone was behaving like that in your own home with your own personal possessions.

Going back to my original point, Katie has stood up for herself here but it's worth noting that it's Heavy in the firing line and not Bear, why? Well my opinion would be, as i said earlier, each and every individual has a different level of confidence and Katie quite clearly feels confident enough to confront Heavy for being wasteful but not Bear at this point. That in-itself proves to a degree that it's not always tactical when certain people stand back but more so down to the level of courage they possess.

I don't see tactics in a bad light at all....I like the tactics Bear, Renee, Heavy, Lewis and others have used.....I always like the game players ...but the tactic of sitting on the fence or going under the radar are always a cop out and are totally uneventful to watch.
As for Katie, we don't know if she confronted Bear or not but she confronted someone and that is a start. These people go on stages and perform to live crowds and compete in a ruthless industry to get their spoon in the gravy ...I don't believe a single one of them is as sensitive and passive as some would believe. And if through some fluke they are then they are in the wrong house.

[Stevep]

Originally Posted by hot2go

I don't see tactics in a bad light at all....I like the tactics Bear, Renee, Heavy, Lewis and others have used.....I always like the game players ...but the tactic of sitting on the fence or going under the radar are always a cop out and are totally uneventful to watch.
As for Katie, we don't know if she confronted Bear or not but she confronted someone and that is a start. These people go on stages and perform to live crowds and compete in a ruthless industry to get their spoon in the gravy ...I don't believe a single one of them is as sensitive and passive as some would believe. And if through some fluke they are then they are in the wrong house.

I don't think her life is as competitive as you make out, not sure if it was a live feed or a highlights show but i remember her describing her typical day once and it sounded pretty mundane.

Agree to disagree here i think.

[Ian Coke]

Originally Posted by Stevep

Going back to my original point, Katie has stood up for herself here but it's worth noting that it's Heavy in the firing line and not Bear, why? Well my opinion would be, as i said earlier, each and every individual has a different level of confidence and Katie quite clearly feels confident enough to confront Heavy for being wasteful but not Bear when he had been. That in itself proves to a degree that it's not always tactical when certain people stand back but more so down to the level of courage they possess.

Well, or it could just be that she finds Colin more irritating, or expects more from him, as a middle-aged man, than she does from Bear, who's openly in there to cause mayhem, 24/7. What would be the point of talking to Stephen about anything, when all complaints about his antics seem to do is encourage the next installment in the Bear show? Colin, I'm guessing, is more frustrating because he's so weak, mentally, and so easily led. An apology one day is absolutely no guarantee that he won't repeat the offending behaviour next time Lewis or Bear throw him a few scraps of kindness. It's kind of tragic, really. But it also must be massively annoying. And then there's the 'Boom!' thing. As a viewer, I want Colin to die every time he does that, so imagine being locked up with it, for weeks that must seem like months by now.

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by Ian Coke

Well, or it could just be that she finds Colin more irritating, or expects more from him, as a middle-aged man, than she does from Bear, who's openly in there to cause mayhem, 24/7. What would be the point of talking to Stephen about anything, when all complaints about his antics seem to do is encourage the next installment in the Bear show? Colin, I'm guessing, is more frustrating because he's so weak, mentally, and so easily led. An apology one day is absolutely no guarantee that he won't repeat the offending behaviour next time Lewis or Bear throw him a few scraps of kindness. It's kind of tragic, really. But it also must be massively annoying. And then there's the 'Boom!' thing. As a viewer, I want Colin to die every time he does that. Imagine being locked up with it, for weeks that must seem like months now.

Yes, I think you've made some good points here. I think she does expect better of him, not because of his age but because she knows he is actually a decent person, and I think you're right in saying she is probably frustrated with him at being so easily led, again because deep inside he is a decent person.

You are also right in your observations about Bear- any comment to him would fall on deaf ears, and as he enjoys provoking others, would more than likely just encourage him to continue.

I guess it's a case of appealing to the man with a conscience, rather than the man without, as at least you have some chance of having an impact.

[Ian Coke]

Originally Posted by Garfie

Yes, I think you've made some good points here. I think she does expect better of him, not because of his age but because she knows he is actually a decent person, and I think you're right in saying she is probably frustrated with him at being so easily led, again because deep inside he is a decent person.

You are also right in your observations about Bear- any comment to him would fall on deaf ears, and as he enjoys provoking others, would more than likely just encourage him to continue.

I guess it's a case of appealing to the man with a conscience, rather than the man without, as at least you have some chance of having an impact.

Thanks for the kind words! But I see no evidence of Colin being 'a decent person'. He's always happy to join in when Bear and Lewis are picking on anyone who isn't him. Hilariously, or embarrassingly, Colin still seems to see himself as a master tactician, a sort of ruthless gangster strategist, in spite of being played, over and over. He appears to get a lot of sympathy on here because he isn't as handsome as Bear and Lewis, but I'm not sure we should assume his soul is any less rotten, simply because the packaging is more Viz than GQ

[Garfie]

Originally Posted by Ian Coke

Thanks for the kind words! But I see no evidence of Colin being 'a decent person'. He's always happy to join in when Bear and Lewis are picking on anyone who isn't him. Hilariously, or embarrassingly, Colin still seems to see himself as a master tactician, a sort of ruthless gangster strategist, in spite of being played, over and over. He appears to get a lot of sympathy on here because he isn't as handsome as Bear and Lewis, but I'm not sure we should assume his soul is any less rotten, simply because the packaging is more Viz than GQ

Although I agreed on lots of what you said in your previous post, our perceptions differ here, Ian.

He has, on occasions, joined in with Bear and Lewis when they were picking on others, notably James, but this was at the start, and I might be wrong but I can't remember more recent occasions of this. I certainly don't think the word 'always' is anywhere near accurate.

I do think he is a decent person. He is naive, he is easily led and manipulated and he has got things wrong on occasions- granted. However, my impression is that his mistakes are not coming from a bad place like they do with Bear, but from an attempt to have fun; whereas I feel Bear and Lewis go out of their way to be cruel and to provoke others, and indeed revel in the distress they cause, I believe Heavy's motives are based firmly in humour and in just having a laugh.

He doesn't always think, but I don't believe he is malicious. He has shown he listens to others and makes the effort to adapt his behaviour. I think he has a heart, whereas the other two are just manipulative and care only for themselves. Heavy has sometimes been rotten, but I don't believe he is rotten- it is a case of separating the action and the person, and I believe the person has a lot of redeeming features. Even good people can, and do, get things wrong.

I can't say I understand how you feel he sees himself as a 'massive tactician', although he has made tongue-in-cheek comments.

He does have some sympathy from me, but it is nothing to do with him being perceived as having a less 'handsome....packaging' or me assuming 'his soul is less rotten' because of that. Give me some credit, Ian! I form my opinions using my brain rather than my eyes, so use my brain to interpret what my eyes see! Surely you wouldn't think me as superficial or so condescending as to pity people for their appearances, and base my judgments on them according to that! :

In actual fact, I feel sympathy, not pity, for him due to the way he has been manipulated, picked on and taken advantage of by the two slime balls already mentioned. More importantly, I like him and am supporting him, for a whole range of reasons!