[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well TS services have recognised that 95% of all humans are arseholes, which would presumably include Muslims. So if you do the maths, and assuming your 7% figure to be accurate, still only 7.4% of those Muslims are radicalised. That's pretty good going, to be honest.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, it's grossly unfair that you should drag Israel into the discussion simply because I'm Jewish. But as you have.... I am REGULARLY put into that position. I'm regularly put into that position on this forum.

I WANT Muslims to stand up and be counted. I don't want them to be the target of Islamophobia... especially as it is their brothers and sisters (their own term) who are being killed. But the fact remains that Islam is the number one biggest threat to the West at the moment. In the best-case scenario, there are millions of radicals in Islam. If that's not a dangerous position to be in, I don't know what is.

I don't have all the answers and it's a childish comment to say I think I have.

I think Israel is a fair comparison. If you are regularly put into that position then why are you so happy to do it to Muslims? You downplayed the opposition that Muslims put forth against extremism as 'getting together for the weekend' yet you shirked out of offering an alternative course of action. All these people can do is stand up and denounce the actions of extremists and they've sent that message out loud and clear every time an attack happens. It's not an islamic issue, it's an extremist issue.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think Israel is a fair comparison. If you are regularly put into that position then why are you so happy to do it to Muslims? You downplayed the opposition that Muslims put forth against extremism as 'getting together for the weekend' yet you shirked out of offering an alternative course of action. All these people can do is stand up and denounce the actions of extremists and they've sent that message out loud and clear every time an attack happens. It's not an islamic issue, it's an extremist issue.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, it's grossly unfair that you should drag Israel into the discussion simply because I'm Jewish.

Originally Posted by Livia

Moderate Muslims need to step up more because it's mostly THEY who are being slaughtered. Those Muslims living the soft life in the West need to speak up for their brothers and sisters in UN camps right now their homes destroyed and their loved ones dead.

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in these statements?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think Israel is a fair comparison. If you are regularly put into that position then why are you so happy to do it to Muslims? You downplayed the opposition that Muslims put forth against extremism as 'getting together for the weekend' yet you shirked out of offering an alternative course of action. All these people can do is stand up and denounce the actions of extremists and they've sent that message out loud and clear every time an attack happens. It's not an islamic issue, it's an extremist issue.

No, my being a Jew is just a convenient excuse for your to point score in an argument where there is A LOT of grey area. As far as I know Jews are not attacking the West right now, they're not hacking up servicemen rolling trucks over little kids. So let's have one discussion at a time because if I wasn't a Jew you would never have brought it up.

I didn't shirk out of anything. Please don't use aggressive language in what is supposed to be a debate.

Muslims in the Middle East who have suffered at the hands of IS and other organisations are vociferous in their opposition to terrorism. In the West, Muslims don't have to be, because there are always people worrying that they might take offence at being asked.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think Israel is a fair comparison. If you are regularly put into that position then why are you so happy to do it to Muslims? You downplayed the opposition that Muslims put forth against extremism as 'getting together for the weekend' yet you shirked out of offering an alternative course of action. All these people can do is stand up and denounce the actions of extremists and they've sent that message out loud and clear every time an attack happens. It's not an islamic issue, it's an extremist issue.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in these statements?

Israel is not a terrorist organisation threatening the stability of this country.

Using this question to me is like asking a gay person to explain why Black Lives Matter are blocking the roads... because both groups have been oppressed.

[Livia]

This is interesting, usually it's just two on one.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Israel is not a terrorist organisation threatening the stability of this country.

Using this question to me is like asking a gay person to explain why Black Lives Matter are blocking the roads... because both groups have been oppressed.

No it isn't, it's saying that you can't be expected to speak for Israel / Jews "just because you are Jewish", whilst insisting in the same breath that moderate Muslims in the west should have to stand up against radical Islam... "just because they are Muslims".

It doesn't matter what the context is. If it's wrong to insist that someone speak on behalf of a group "just because they belong to that group" in one scenario, then it is wrong in any scenario.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, my being a Jew is just a convenient excuse for your to point score in an argument where there is A LOT of grey area. As far as I know Jews are not attacking the West right now, they're not hacking up servicemen rolling trucks over little kids. So let's have one discussion at a time because if I wasn't a Jew you would never have brought it up.

I didn't shirk out of anything. Please don't use aggressive language in what is supposed to be a debate.

Muslims in the Middle East who have suffered at the hands of IS and other organisations are vociferous in their opposition to terrorism. In the West, Muslims don't have to be, because there are always people worrying that they might take offence at being asked.

If you actually bothered to read my post you'd have seen that I brought it up as an example which I followed up by saying that it wouldn't be fair to hold you accountable for the actions of Israel because of your faith so it's hypocritical to expect the same from muslims for extremist organisations that don't even represent Islam as a whole, even more so to downplay attempts at condemning the actions of IS.

Your last statement is completely and utterly ridiculous. To think that western muslims are placed on a pedestal beyond criticism is so ridiculous. Western muslims get plenty of stick and they are often made to feel like they have to shoulder the burden of a extreme minority's actions that do not represent them.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

This is interesting, usually it's just two on one.

It's a discussion dear, not a cage match.

[VanessaFeltz.]

The thing is if you are not doing the action then you shouldnt feel defensive at all. "Western muslims" arent terorists but some of them (if not majority) support bashing gay people etc so those people who support that (bashing) are pieces of **** as well in my eyes, they are not diffrent from isis at all.

Vast majority of the muslims around the world are supporting making gay people's life hell so i am going to speak up about it, there is no need to stick up for the people that wont care about you at all.

But also i dont believe attacking muslims on street or bullying them just because other muslims are doing ****. I judge people by their own action not as a group. But there is an obvious truth out here that needs to be spoken.

Also israel did tons of **** to palestine for no reason and i wont tolerate that at all as well. I would expect better from a nation that suffered WW2 worse than any other country.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's a discussion dear, not a cage match.

Don't call me dear, Dezzy. We're friends... please keep it civil.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you actually bothered to read my post you'd have seen that I brought it up as an example which I followed up by saying that it wouldn't be fair to hold you accountable for the actions of Israel because of your faith so it's hypocritical to expect the same from muslims for extremist organisations that don't even represent Islam as a whole, even more so to downplay attempts at condemning the actions of IS.

Your last statement is completely and utterly ridiculous. To think that western muslims are placed on a pedestal beyond criticism is so ridiculous. Western muslims get plenty of stick and they are often made to feel like they have to shoulder the burden of a extreme minority's actions that do not represent them.

Western Muslims are put on a pedestal. Especially in this country. Everyone's afraid of upsetting them so their anti-gay, anti-all other religions, misogynistic stance is tolerated.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

This is interesting, usually it's just two on one.

Not this again . More than one person disagrees with you and all of a sudden it's "ganging up"? That's an easy cop out, I suppose. I personally will happily argue against the entire forum without complaint if they happen to disagree with me... as far as I'm aware it's not a "one in, one out" tag team system where you have to wait on the sidelines until the numbers even out

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not this again . More than one person disagrees with you and all of a sudden it's "ganging up"? That's an easy cop out, I suppose. I personally will happily argue against the entire forum without complaint if they happen to disagree with me... as far as I'm aware it's not a "one in, one out" tag team system where you have to wait on the sidelines until the numbers even out

Surely not something I've said you disagree with TS.

Why don't you try to tick me off like a child? Or post one of your "comedy conversations".

Or better still, stick me on ignore and we won't have to annoy each other anymore.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Surely not something I've said you disagree with TS.

Why don't you try to tick me off like a child? Or post one of your "comedy conversations".

Or better still, stick me on ignore and we won't have to annoy each other anymore.

If I don't debate seriously enough, everyone gets all huffy about me not respecting the sanctity of SD&N... if I start making actual posts again then the response is this? pick a lane?

You don't annoy me and neither do your posts so I have no real reason to put you on ignore... I get plenty out of your rants, they soothe what remains of my little soul

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not this again . More than one person disagrees with you and all of a sudden it's "ganging up"? That's an easy cop out, I suppose. I personally will happily argue against the entire forum without complaint if they happen to disagree with me... as far as I'm aware it's not a "one in, one out" tag team system where you have to wait on the sidelines until the numbers even out

I completely understand the point Livia is making. It is not just that "More than one person disagrees" with her, more that there are 'more than one person disagreeing with her' who actually COME ONTO the thread to do so, because - this Forum having degenerated from its previous excellence with ridicule and personal prejudices being more openly vented, a LOT of members who AGREE with Livia, either dare NOT come on the forum to air that agreement, or do not WANT to come onto the forum because, though not intimidated, they still cannot be bothered with the inevitable fallout.

My own take is a combination of both - in addition to the unshakeable realisation that these threads are totally FUTILE, because this is just one more of many forerunners, and despite the most comprehensive of 'quality' debating - by both sides - NOTHING is ever resolved, and NO ONE's mind is ever changed, and INVARIABLY, instead, hostility, anger, ill-will and resentment are the end results.

In MY Own Opinion, of course.

[Niamh.]

Can we all please stick to discussing the topic and not start accusing eachother of stuff, people disagree with eachother, it's the debate section jeez

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Israel is not a terrorist organisation threatening the stability of this country.

Using this question to me is like asking a gay person to explain why Black Lives Matter are blocking the roads... because both groups have been oppressed.

Israel is NOT a terrorist organisation threatening ANY country or ANY people.

WHY is it always treated as a GIVEN ABSOLUTE on any post - consciously or subconsciously - that Israel is THE cause of the woes in that part of the Middle East, and that Israel is the OPPRESSOR when it comes to the Palestinian issue?

Because - quite simply - Israel is NEITHER, and for anyone to assume or presume that it is, is oversimplifying a very, very, complex issue.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Israel is NOT a terrorist organisation threatening ANY country or ANY people.

WHY is it always treated as a GIVEN ABSOLUTE on any post - consciously or subconsciously - that Israel is THE cause of the woes in that part of the Middle East, and that Israel is the OPPRESSOR when it comes to the Palestinian issue?

Because - quite simply - Israel is NEITHER, and for anyone to assume or presume that it is, is oversimplifying a very, very, complex issue.

Because israel is THE cause of mess in palestine

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

My own take is a combination of both - in addition to the unshakeable realisation that these threads are totally FUTILE, because this is just one more of many forerunners, and despite the most comprehensive of 'quality' debating - by both sides - NOTHING is ever resolved, and NO ONE's mind is ever changed, and INVARIABLY, instead, hostility, anger, ill-will and resentment are the end results.

And a kewpie doll for the lady.


See. You do "get it" after all, Kirk.

[Crimson Dynamo]

lol at the poll

[Alf]

Submission

[Maru]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lol at the poll

I am the 7.23% hands up woo

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It gets brief mention in the headlines, very little or zero meaningful coverage in the mainstream media. Apparently that's because of "distance", but 5 deaths in Australia or the USA will get significantly more coverage than 1000 deaths in the Middle East.

You need to look at alternative / online news sources for anything else. The sad fact is, it just doesn't sell.

Funny that. Our national news coverage would have you only believe we exist... I just wondered if the the proximity that the Europeans have to the Middle Eastern region, with the complications of having open borders, may help to generate more of a daily news cycle.

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

You can watch the Al Jazeera news channel for Middle Eastern stuff.

I used to be able to. They're off my cable provider, but am reading they went bust

BBC America has some coverage.

Originally Posted by Livia

I'd say it gets quite a bit of coverage, although I suspect there will be people here who disagree. I was pleased that recently the UN camps have been the subject of a couple of documentaries. We also have quite a bit of coverage of the refugee crisis. Honestly? I don't know what we'd all do without access to the Internet, it's so liberating to be able to get a variety of news from around the world.

Agreed.

It sounds like a lot of people here have very strong personal opinions. I haven't had an experience or a situation where I have any reason to create or have a strong viewpoint. I've only met a handful of Muslims (if that) and they were barely practicing. Most other details I've learned from school from history.

I know more and more people here (in the US) are anti-Muslim for many reasons (including the increasing airs of nationalism, of which I detest intensely). However, being from a mixed community myself I can't feel such suspicion and heavy disdain towards Islam because the practitioners happen to be practicing in a hypocritical manner. Some of that could be my own ignorance though as I don't have a deep enough understanding of the religion to know what it does and doesn't encourage explicitly.

I get what some are saying here about personal experiences and having been to those countries, but are we sure it's the religion that provokes the violence and not just that it gets enmeshed with the local population. I would think the religion is an easy gateway to victimizing groups and going after non-religious agendas as some have illustrated here eloquently about the religion needing reform. Though even if we went back even a few hundred years, we would see similar oppression (and violence) by Christians towards minority groups... it was society that reformed from black and white ways of thinking that ultimately changed that statistic.

I can read news about the violence online, but without having good context (especially experience based), it's hard for me to draw such critical conclusions. I don't know enough about Muslims or their way of worship to be a good judge of their beliefs and practices. Terrorist groups and oppressive political parties wouldn't necessarily be the best example due to the stronger, motivations involved. Though I certainly respect why some people would have strong views against Islam from personal experiences in those countries...

Having said that, there are major major humanitarian issue with regards to the oppression and violence occurring in the Middle Eastern region that is spilling over into other countries and may eventually find a stronger foothold in the future (as generations pass). However, when we collectively (as countries, not people's opinions) make it an anti-Muslim issue, we're only looking at the short-term and are more or less giving the opposition more ammunition to create animosity, dissent and ultimately grow numbers against the West.

There are some groups that are intensely anti-Muslim in the US too that I would not want to take the lead here. That too will cause more dissension and needless bloodshed as well which is likely more harmful to peace within the US than terrorism.

[Kizzy]

Is it enough yet?...

'Radical hate preacher Anjem Choudary has been found guilty of inviting support for Isis.

Muslims and Muslim organisations around the country have come out in support of the verdict, with many saying they have been waiting years for Choudary to be locked away.

“Although these men are no longer on the streets, we must recognise there are other extremists in Britain aggressively promoting an Islamist extreme worldview often on campus, communities and social media.

“We all have a responsibility in challenging this perverse ideology whether in mosques, universities or online. There is no place for such extremism in our society.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7196041.html