[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What is the alternative to an independent Scotland? stay shackled to this heckhole?...Name one thing that still makes you proud to be from Britain, I just can't think of one.
I want to, it's not a nice feeling to feel so detached and despondent when imagining the future here. Especially as you know it could be so much better, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon thinks the govt has our best interests at heart and I agree.

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

I feel that you are totally wasting your time though Jaxie, because ALL of this, and more, has been said, with corroboration, many, many, times - by others as well as me - but to no avail.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad

I'm thrilled what I said gave you a good feeling. Of course you are right that there are problems too, as I said no state is perfect but sometimes we need to look at the positives too. Balance is a good thing.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by jaxie

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

And that might even be at a discount, Jaxie Just to get diagnosed with a kidney stone, the non-Medical Center hospital billed here us $16,000+. The CT Scan alone was $4-6K. You should've seen it itemized. I'm sure childbirth involves more...

Anyway great post, our countries are so similar

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too!

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too!

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what?

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

You say you are worried about rights. What rights have changed since we voted leave?

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Well you said protest was pointless.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what?

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Still waiting to hear about the disaster, what it was, what happened?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

Yeah OK. This is a direct copy of MY repeated comments to you.

You are using so many of my words and phrases now, that I sometimes have to look twice to ensure that I am not responding to my own posts.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

Absolutely brilliant! I could not have said it any better myself! I am so proud to be British! Even more so now after reading this uplifting post. Thanks Jaxie