[the truth]

the usual pack mentality here isolating a solitary poster, some may call it cyber bullying

[Withano]

Originally Posted by the truth

the usual pack mentality here isolating a solitary poster, some may call it cyber bullying

Or some will call it responding to a poster which responded to them in response to a weird thread they created for a public forum. Hmm either/or.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

[Maru]

I don't agree with the kirk on everything he writes, but I don't think that his opinion is irrelevant either as long as it is substantive enough to warrant discussion. It's the opposition after all that even makes it a debate.

Personally, many people share such an opinion with Kirk and I'd like to hear from him why as it expands my mind beyond my own established thought bubble...

Kirk, to be fair I had read through your OP a number of times and tried to get through the feedback and responses as well. I didn't really understand what your underlying argument even was.

All that said, I've read your responses and have some thoughts...

I'm surprised to see Miley Cyrus in the OP of anything pertaining to S&D. She's not exactly the first person that comes to mind when talking about moral code/moral decency... especially as it pertains to most celebrities who are active in the political scheme of things. (though Miley would feel her opinion matters, at least when it comes to feminism... which I'll cite later)

I'm assuming you were using her as prop/example, i.e. even the most hypocritical is trying to make money/gain followers by jumping on-board with the abuse allegations... i.e. the abuse allegations thing is an easy bandwagon for those who are selling records and CD's.... which means there is strong evidence of a conflict of interest.

Not sure I see Miley Cyrus is hypocrit #1, but I do see her as an example (read: warning) of what children should not grow up to become.

In my POV, most celebrities are hardly impartial. These music/entertainment celebrities are not great examples as they more often than not are catering/mimic-ing their liberal-leaning base.

Trump should know, they've been playing the video of his glowing review of Hillary Clinton when she was running for senator in NY on CNN all day during the pre-debate coverage.

When Donald Trump Praised Hillary Clinton
http://time.com/3962799/donald-trump-hillary-clinton/

“I’m a businessman. I contribute to everybody,” Trump said. “When I needed Hillary, she was there. If I say ‘go to my wedding,’ they go to my wedding.”

Did he choose to be democrat because of his base, or was he just kissing up to some well-known "winners" at the time in order to gain/influence and appear 'relevant' to his base audience (at the time)?

In terms of judging Miley Cyrus as specifically,

1) We don't know how much of her entertainment persona is her true persona. This is the problem with any celebrity. For all we know, she is completely different than what she portrays on Twitter and in her shows (which is really a brand, not a person). She could be a total hypocrite in real life or far more educated in politics than we even dreamed possible. Though I agree with you, she intentionally pushes buttons as an entertainment for sure... though this is still far from being a sexual predator.

2) It's not surprising she would be anti-Trump. It's practically a sin to be a Trump supporter if your core base is skewed young and more of a liberal base.

That said,

3) Miley Cyrus at some point in her career started making connections between her new stage persona (post-Hannah Montana) and pro-feminism. This is literally her brand. Her endorsement should be of no surprise.

Why Miley Is The Queen Of White Feminism
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/why...white-feminism

4) While I don't think she's particular notable with regards to their political expertise, many young fans turn to these people for guidance not only for what is expected of them, but their earliest political opinions are shaped by these celebrities... many of these celebraties are expected to not be entirely selfish, i.e. use their status power and respective platform(s) to take political stances in the name of "good causes". That does mean something so she can't really advertise herself and her views to be something it really isn't. It could significantly hurt her image and hurt her relevancy. (see: Taylor Swift's crafted image and subsequent expose)

Anyway the debate is on, so I'll just leave this for now.

[jennyjuniper]

Having read all the posts on this thread, I understand where Kirk is coming from.
I think the real tragedy of the upcoming elections is that Trump and Clinton are the only two candidates.
Trump as a sexual predator (IF the stories about him are true and he wasn't just being a bit of an immature ass by bragging and proving how much power he has) Or Hilary Clinton, who is an enabler to a sexual predator (IF the stories about Bill Clinton are true)
Surely a country the size of America could come up with a man/woman who is worthy of the position as one of the most powerful leaders in the world, other than these two sorry specimens?

[Ammi]

...I wasn't going to make another post....but there is no attempt at bullying, cyber or otherwise and no pack mentality here at all, not even what could be slightly perceived as being so..let's not say don't cry these things or infer these things on things like BB and then cry and infer them also...this thread was made in the morning and only reached it's second page by early evening with a few posters being involved and all involved being appropriately contributory to the topic and discussion...then when others also contributed, it was because of different things like time-zone differences and work days ending..the thread is only into it's 4th page and being made many hours ago ..this was always a thread that was going to provoke comment../get attention...is that not the intent in making threads...and this was always going to provoke very definite stances and opinions as well because of its subject ..and in this cyber/forum world as with most other worlds, it was always going to be a bit of a 'lone voice' in its opinion as well...you did well though, Kirk.....and tbh with you, I think that the opposite and some of the thoughts are quite gentle in their manner in respect of you and because it's you...




...anyway, whether it be for her own gain and attention or not, it doesn't really matter...Miley is a celebrity and the nature of celebrity is that it can gain attention from the media when it voices...to say she isn't qualified or that her words are ironic doesn't really equate either...she's a voting American with her opinion, which will lead to her vote and that's the only 'credential' she needs and the only credential which is relevant...it's all about democracy baby...every voter who votes are not asked about their lifestyle in doing so or their 'morals' questioned or scrutinised, it's not a requirement..they're not told, well that's rich considering what you do, are you having a laugh...so she voiced her opinion on someone who finds amusement in the self confessed practice of sexual assault...and as a celebrity that's reported as many others are...she also has a father so probably isn't equating to herself but would she want her dad to be a Trump.../I wouldn't think so...no one deserves a Trump in their life with his moral values..(imo of course..)...

[kirklancaster]

Thanks to Maru and Ammi and Jenny for your responses.

I am still watching those vids on the links supplied by you Maru, and will respond later.

[kirklancaster]

I would like to move on from Miley Cyrus now and would welcome - civil - thoughts on my post about Summer Zervos, one of the women who have come forward with sexual assault allegations against Trump.

[Johnnyuk123]

I have just read through this Kirk, and you are right, there is more to this accusation than meets the eye. Thank you for the detailed post on this woman's allegation.

[Ammi]

...tbh Kirk, I don't really personally have anything to contribute to that allegation by Summer...it's something that is very doubtful could be proven as they were the only two people present so the only ones who know the truth and it would be wrong to speculate on something so serious...otherwise it's just feeding trial by media and trial by the public etc...and those 'trials' that involve sexual assaults specifically that would be difficult to prove or also the trials of both people involved as sexual assault of any kind in the justice system is very much the character of the 'victim' as well....I only really have become much involved when words have been said with own mouths and self admissions etc.../those old undisputables....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Withano

Donald Trump bragged about groping other women, Miley Cyrus danced at the end of the stage towards other people who already had their hands in the air and hopefully didnt intend on groping her. The whole thing lasted less than three seconds.

This is painfully incomparable. You could compare Donald to one of the people in the crowd If you really wanted to push an agenda.

There is no contradiction between a woman who doesnt like men groping unwilling women simply because she danced near people at a concert.

Its kinda of like me saying i dont like men who slap people and then you showing a video of a someone putting their hand on my face and calling it a contradiction

What a ****ing stupid thread. I know you keep saying you dont care for Trump, its difficult to believe you when you twisted a scene in to whatever this is though.

Originally Posted by Withano

Right, but this really is nothing. You're disregarding a womans thought on sexual assault (disgusting by the way, not the point im making but still grim of you) simply because there is three seconds of footage of her dancing into a crowd of hands at her concert. This is the biggest piece of nothing i've ever read.

Originally Posted by Withano

Even in your eyes Miley let herself be groped for 3 seconds (that isnt what happened but for arguments sake, lets say it is). That is multitudes different to any person groping an unwilling person for three seconds (more likely, a lot longer than this, but for arguments sake).

That is the complete difference of consent and assault. Youve disregarded Mileys thoughts on assault because youve seen her give consent.

This thread is completely grim. Almost perpetuating rape culture and sounding like a meninist with an agenda.

"Mileys not allowed to dislike assault cos heres three secs of her fans with their hands on her body" get out.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

Originally Posted by Shaun

How embarrassing.

Originally Posted by Withano

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

what was it The Truth said about bullying.....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

A stuck record? Youve spent 3000 words trying to explain one argument and completely got in a huff because next to nobody (not just me by a longshot) could understand what you were tring to argue heres to a new day.
Not sure if a personal insult in my comprehension skills are necessary. But thats what ive come to expect from tibb, seems youre making an attempt to bully me.

[jaxie]

I can see where you are coming from on this Kirk, it's about the moral compass of those casting stones on others alleged behaviour. It's a good point, no matter what you personally think of either of the people mentioned.

I think Miley's behavior is equally reprehensible because as a recording star her sexualized behaviour is going to have an impact on young girls, influencing that this kind of thing is acceptable. And also on young boys, showing them an iconic woman as a sexual object. It is a step too far to act in this way and would have far more impact on the impressionable than some sexual boasting by a fusty old man like Trump. In essence Trump is treating women as sexual objects but Miley is portraying herself as one. Neither should be acceptable.

What I don't understand with regard the allegations about Trump, and indeed with regard other media personalities accused of similar, is why no one came forward when the alleged incident happened. It must in part be down to personalities, age at the time and other factors but it's quite hard to understand why there is so little speaking out. If someone touched me inappropriately, no matter who it was, I'd scream blue murder and possibly break a few fingers. I suppose, as TS so eloquently inferred on another thread with regard some forum members, it's a good thing LT isn't doing anything excitable to Jaxie's tears. There would be hell to pay.

[Ammi]

...well I guess that my opinion is that an iconic woman or any woman can also choose to be a sexual object as well on her own terms and in her own decisions of who can touch her intimately if she wants to...because anyone's moral compass...(within the law and not infringing on anyone's else's freedom or choices..)...is only for them to decide...there is no one size fits all moral compass, these are things that we all decide for ourselves and one of the few controls we have and don't detract from any rights we have...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Withano

A stuck record? Youve spent 3000 words trying to explain one argument and completely got in a huff because next to nobody (not just me by a longshot) could understand what you were tring to argue heres to a new day.
Not sure if a personal insult in my comprehension skills are necessary. But thats what ive come to expect from tibb, seems youre making an attempt to bully me.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Oops, LT not understanding the context of my post and facepalming a paraphrased quote from Kirk. I agree LT, it is a ridiculous thing to say in the debates section.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...well I guess that my opinion is that an iconic woman or any woman can also choose to be a sexual object as well on her own terms and in her own decisions of who can touch her intimately if she wants to...because anyone's moral compass...(within the law and not infringing on anyone's else's freedom or choices..)...is only for them to decide...there is no one size fits all moral compass, these are things that we all decide for ourselves and one of the few controls we have and don't detract from any rights we have...

Well she can of course but where you might be in a position to influence others with the message you are putting across, perhaps it needs more thought.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oops, LT not understanding the context of my post and facepalming a paraphrased quote from Kirk. I agree LT, it is a ridiculous thing to say in the debates section.

trying to cover your tracks with humour will not work i am afraid

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I can see where you are coming from on this Kirk, it's about the moral compass of those casting stones on others alleged behaviour. It's a good point, no matter what you personally think of either of the people mentioned.

I think Miley's behavior is equally reprehensible because as a recording star her sexualized behaviour is going to have an impact on young girls, influencing that this kind of thing is acceptable. And also on young boys, showing them an iconic woman as a sexual object. It is a step too far to act in this way and would have far more impact on the impressionable than some sexual boasting by a fusty old man like Trump. In essence Trump is treating women as sexual objects but Miley is portraying herself as one. Neither should be acceptable.

What I don't understand with regard the allegations about Trump, and indeed with regard other media personalities accused of similar, is why no one came forward when the alleged incident happened. It must in part be down to personalities, age at the time and other factors but it's quite hard to understand why there is so little speaking out. If someone touched me inappropriately, no matter who it was, I'd scream blue murder and possibly break a few fingers. I suppose, as TS so eloquently inferred on another thread with regard some forum members, it's a good thing LT isn't doing anything excitable to Jaxie's tears. There would be hell to pay.

Nicely put Jaxie

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well she can of course but where you might be in a position to influence others with the message you are putting across, perhaps it needs more thought.

..I do understand what you say Jaxie but I guess we just have different perspectives in the 'influence' that can be projected on celebrity and entertainment because back in the day as it were when messages were demanded from celebrity in their image and what they portrayed...like for instance, Rock Hudson or Cary Grant...the image expected was one that said 'you can't be yourself' and that to me seemed to bring a lot of unhappiness into their lives and not being able to be who they were...so whatever moral compass Miley is giving herself in her performances and her life choices...?..the message to me will always have a great positive of her having the freedom to be who she is and exercising that freedom without it having any bearing on her 'credentials', you know....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

trying to cover your tracks with humour will not work i am afraid

My tracks are on display for you to read and reread. My point throughout the discussion was that it is a pretty grim thread that lacks any solid argument, this is still true. I've learned that Kirk doesnt like negative feedback, doesnt understand opposing opinions on a debate section and fails to understand why anybody would ever have an opposing opinion to his super awesome thread, he also doesnt understand paraphrasing, I'll remember this for next time to make this discussion flow better.
I've been accused of making an attempt to bully simply because many people in this thread had the same concerns I did and I turned it around to highlight how ridiculous a comment like that is, you've already accidentally agreed with this.

[Ammi]

..so now there is (for the first time..)...very definite targeting of a specific person.../poor Withano and how ironic, LT...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Withano

My tracks are on display for you to read and reread. My point throughout the discussion was that it is a pretty grim thread that lacks any solid argument, this is still true. I've learned that Kirk doesnt like negative feedback, doesnt understand opposing opinions on a debate section and fails to understand why anybody would ever have an opposing opinion to his super awesome thread, he also doesnt understand paraphrasing, I'll remember this for next time to make this discussion flow better.
I've been accused of making an attempt to bully simply because many people in this thread had the same concerns I did and I turned it around to highlight how ridiculous a comment like that is, you've already accidentally agreed with this.

Im afraid all you have achieved is to shine the mirror back on yourself for all to see...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..so now there is (for the first time..)...very definite targeting of a specific person.../poor Withano and how ironic, LT...

Agreed Ammi, I'm not buying into any of this ridiculous "bullying " rhetoric but it does seem that a little posse has formed around Kirk in this thread in the last few pages to defend him against "being bullied" (... ...) by ganging up on and belittling another member who they have perceived as a "weak link". Hmmm. Oh and fighting for the god-given right to slut shame.

Tbh I reckon I've been slacking and Kirk has forgotten what an old fashioned SD&N fight night really looks like

[Ammi]

..the irony of a thread concept that's basically saying the kettle has no right to call the pot black and refers to jumping on band-wagons..and then accuses of targeting an OP which by nature of being an OP will create the focus in opinions directly...and then targets a member...yep, there are days when you couldn't make it up....kettle calling pot/jumping on bandwagons....streuth....