[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

A very noble speech Joey, most commendable, and guaranteed to raise your popularity on here even more in certain quarters, but I am totally confused.

Are you referring to genuine Refugees? Illegal Economic Migrants? Or ALL?

There is a VAST difference between illegal immigrants wanting to gain entry into the UK for ECONOMIC reasons, and GENUINE refugees who NEED sanctuary and help.

The trouble is, I - and just a few others - speak only the truth, and it doesn't make us popular on here.

And that truth which we speak, is that this little island is zillions of pounds in debt, and all its services - the Benefits System, NHS, Police, Fire Services, Education and schools, Army etc etc, are collapsing under dwindling funding and the strain of TOO MANY PEOPLE demanding their services.

There is NO room and NO money to simply let every economic migrant in by the millions so PRIORITY has to be GENUINE refugees.

Of course, we who speak the truth, are xenophobic, heartless, inhuman, uncaring, racist, right wing fascist, Little Englanders - or worse.

If your stance is taken to its logical conclusion and ALL economic immigrants are welcomed into the Uk - WHERE is the MONEY coming from? The hundreds of thousands of new houses needed? The tens of thousands of extra Police, Firemen, Teachers, Doctors etc who will ALL require paying BY THE STATE.
The extra hundreds of billions needed for the NHS, Education, etc etc?

To repeat what others have said on here already - EVERY illegal ECONOMIC immigrant gaining entry to the UK DEPRIVES a GENUINE refugee from doing so - a genuine refugee who NEEDS sanctuary and help.

I have news for you Joey - you are not the only one on here who 'sees' themselves as "a human being, just one of many of the whole human race".

I can proof that I donate - by monthly deduction from my bank - to 7 different Charities - - including Oxfam -- and I can also proof that I regularly help Albanian and Lithuanian and a few other Nationalities Immigrants with their documentation and Housing problems on an unpaid basis.

It does not make me Mother Theresa.

Nor does it stop me from facing reality on issues such as Illegal Immigrants and speaking what I consider to be the truth.

Popularity be damned.

A good try by you again Kirk to twist words and jump in at me again too, I actually said talking about myself,I saw myself as a human being,then added just one of many of the whole human race.

I said no one else was not a member of the human race but there you go.

Odd how you too, have chosen to join in and jump on my post while I was only agreeing with another who you totally ignored the comment of.
I am not playing your games Kirk.
I have sent my post to the mods myself.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

A good try by you again Kirk to twist words and jump in at me again too, I actually said talking about myself,I saw myself as a human being,then added just one of many of the whole human race.

I said no one else was not a member of the human race but there you go.

Odd how you too, have chosen to join in and jump on my post while I was only agreeing with another who you totally ignored the comment of.
I am not playing your games Kirk.
I have sent my post to the mods myself.

I responded to a post on a forum Joey, and was not; 'jumping in at you again' - whatever that is meant to imply - nor was I 'playing games'.

Jet made the following post:

"Reading through these threads on the immigrants situation it's pretty clear than Isis haven't just killed people, their activities have also killed our humanity and compassion. I rarely post in these types of threads, as I would be banned within a few days..."

I believe that the meaning of Jet's post is very clear; she is disgusted and angry, that, in her opinion, some members have expressed little sympathy and compassion for the plight of the unfortunate people living in the camps at Calais, and she gives the former as reasons why she does not post very often in 'these type of threads' because she fears that she would quickly get banned - probably for becoming embroiled in 'personal' argument with those members she refers to - members who do not hold the same opinions as she does.

Jet does not say that certain members should NOT hold such opinions - just intimates that she is disgusted and angry that they do - which is her prerogative.

You open your response post to Jet with:

"Well said Jet and I mean that 100%"

Which can only mean that you too, feel exactly the same way.

However, where Jet does not expound on what she is saying, you actually continue Joey:

"I have been off for a few weeks really with family matters.
Serious debates was an area I loved to not only participate in but read too.
Not so now.

My only contribution now to this and likely some abuse will flow from this statement,comes from how I am, think and feel."

Thus, you clearly link the members who are perceived as dispassionate and unsympathetic to the plight of those camped at Calais, to the demise of Serious Debates and the reason why you no longer love to participate in, or even read, Serious Debates.

Whether in the subtext or otherwise, this is a CLEAR and UNEQUIVOCAL statement from you, that ANYONE who does NOT HOLD your views on Illegal Immigrants and the Calais Camps, are contemptible and to blame for impairing the quality of debate on Serious Debates.

What is more, you stamp those same members of being more than likely of subjecting you to abuse simply for posting your views, but this is not the case Joey, because only two members - BOTS and myself - have responded to you, and neither of us have abused you, we have just stated facts and challenged some of your contentions.

I have found that it is the members who do not conform to the 'general consensus of opinion' here on Tibb, that are more likely to suffer irrational abuse for posting their views.

Incidentally Joey – the statements of ALL member's contributions to Serious Debates also 'comes from how they are, think and feel' – or ought to.

“I hope I never change how I have come to think and feel as to migrants,refugees and anything that involves people.

I see myself as a human being, just one of many of the whole human race.

Whether fleeing persecution, war,famine and /or fleeing for their lives,I see all doing so as other equal human beings.
Reaching out and helping in their dire need is what I would always hope I would try to do and what those with power would do.”

Nothing at all to object to in the above Joey, and I would hazard a guess that everyone on Tibb feels exactly the same way.

However, it is the next from you – when taking in the context of the thread title and subject matter, in addition to everything else which you have written – which I find arrogantly presumptuous, very judgemental and very very unfair to those of us on here who have a different viewpoint on the Calais camps and Illegal Immigration in general, because you are clearly indicting us of (adversely) judging the Calais camp immigrants, deriding them, and condemning them:

“Adult or child,if other humans have any need or fear at all, hope and security is what they should be able to find, not judgement, derision and condemnation.”

You cannot claim any 'Moral High Ground' Joey and look down upon the rest of us just because we do not extend the 'Welcome No Questions Asked Mat' to ALL immigrants – Economic especially.

As BOTS said; none of us would seek to turn away GENUINE refugees who are in need of a safe haven and succour, and it is offensive to me anyway, if not the others who share my views, that because we regard the 'refugee' status of the majority of those who are camped at Calais as 'suspect', we are being accused of the above traits.

It is totally illogical, and absolutely dangerously unrealistic, to want to let anyone into this country – unscreened – just because they state a DESIRE to enter the UK, even if their plight may be relatively desperate, when they are, under the law – Illegal Immigrants.

Extend that non-logic to other areas of life;

The drug addict living in a squat who WANTS to shoplift Ł200 worth of goods from the local ASDA to sell to fund his heroin habit.

He is desperate and destitute and living in abject squalor.

Should we allow him to shoplift and SATISFY his DEMANDS and DESIRES purely because of his plight?

(Coincidentally, the plight of both the hypothetical drug addict, and the people in the Calais camps are self-inflicted)

There are Laws and a system (as flawed and ineffectual as it is) concerning Immigrants and Refugees, and those people in the Calais camps have not only been classified as non-refugees and potential Illegal Immigrants, but - as Cherie has pointed out - for every Calais camp immigrant who is allowed into the UK, it is at the cost of a GENUINE refugee.

I am not – of course – referring to unaccompanied children, who are but a minuscule minority, and who SHOULD be taken in by us even it means making an exceptional case for them and flouting our own laws.

[Cherie]

I can't understand why people would be turned off serious debates by people holding different views, if we all held the same view there would be nothing to debate, it's interesting to read others views, sometimes it makes you think about things from a different angle, and that not everything is black and white, sometimes I find myself agreeing with people who hold views I don't normally agree with, and vice versa, neither do I get the argument that I can't say what I feel or I will end up banned, as long as you express your views without insulting members then there should be no issue. Let's hear your thoughts Jet it might give us all another angle to look at. From this thread all I can gather is that we all want to see help given but in some cases members feel the help should be targeted at those most in danger and in need

PS I always assumed Jet was male ...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I can't understand why people would be turned off serious debates by people holding different views, if we all held the same view there would be nothing to debate, it's interesting to read others views, sometimes it makes you think about things from a different angle, and that not everything is black and white, sometimes I find myself agreeing with people who hold views I don't normally agree with, and vice versa, neither do I get the argument that I can't say what I feel or I will end up banned, as long as you express your views without insulting members then there should be no issue. Let's hear your thoughts Jet it might give us all another angle to look at. From this thread all I can gather is that we all want to see help given but in some cases members feel the help should be targeted at those most in danger and in need

PS I always assumed Jet was male ...

Another great post Cherie from the Queen of Common Sense.

As for Jet 'She' might be a 'He', in which case I apologise. I think I assumed Jet was female because of some subconscious thoughts of 'Jet' the Gladiator.

[jet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Another great post Cherie from the Queen of Common Sense.

As for Jet 'She' might be a 'He', in which case I apologise. I think I assumed Jet was female because of some subconscious thoughts of 'Jet' the Gladiator.

Kirk...I enjoy reading your posts too. I find you go into a good bit of detail and bring up things that make you think about aspects of a subject that didn’t occur to you previously. But that can also mean you can over analyse sometimes - in my humble opinion - which I feel you did with Joey’s posts and I don’t want Joey pushed further away from this section of the forum by his posts being unfairly misinterpreted (which I believe happened in this case) so take heed or I’ll give you this

[Cherie]

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

[Cherie]

Love you Kirk, I might hate you tomorrow though

[bots]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

[jet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The smilie is getting a right kicking


I think this notion that there are sides is a bit over exaggerated, Kirk has threatened to put me on ignore more than once, water off a ducks back, as adults I think we should be able to have a heated debate and move on

Of course Cherie. But jabbing away at someone (Joey) and reading too much into his words isn't debate. It's not really debating the issue in question, it's denigrating the person themselves to some degree, two very different things...
My word, I've had my arguments with Joey. Biggies. We are both passionate in what we feel, but we always move on eventually and there are few people I respect and admire here more than I do him because I 'get' him - and it certainly isn't because I agree with him all the time or because he courts popularity any more than I do. Sycophancy turns my stomach.
As much as I like to read and often enjoy what Kirk has to say too (sorry for referring to you Kirk here but I'm replying to Cherie who mentioned you in her post), with all due respect I feel he was out of line concerning Joey on this one.
My, I've had 2 of the longest posts I've ever made in the serious stuff in Serious Debates today. Enough! Bye.