[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

That gay cake thing.From reading the article it was'nt that they would'nt serve them because they were gay.It was because that couple wanted a gay pressure group slogan on the cake.I mean would you go into a muslim cafe and demand they make you a bacon sarnie because you're a gay meat eater?Maybe take them to court if they refuse?

Interesting choice of words there.....

Your Muslim comparison is fatally flawed. Why would you go to a 'Muslim Cafe' (Is that even a thing?) and order bacon? It would be like going to a Vegan restaurant and complaining that they didn't serve meat. Bacon would not be on the menu to begin with.

Those bakers accepted the order and went back on it because of the client. It's really nothing at all like your little comparison. Not offering a product and refusing to serve someone based on their sexuality is completely different.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Interesting choice of words there.....

Your Muslim comparison is fatally flawed. Why would you go to a 'Muslim Cafe' (Is that even a thing?) and order bacon? It would be like going to a Vegan restaurant and complaining that they didn't serve meat. Bacon would not be on the menu to begin with.

Those bakers accepted the order and went back on it because of the client. It's really nothing at all like your little comparison. Not offering a product and refusing to serve someone based on their sexuality is completely different.

It was because of a slogan on the cake that was against the cake makers religion though.I'm pretty sure gay slogans were'nt on the cake shop menu just as bacon is'nt on a muslim food establishments menu.
Oh and veganism isn't a religion(although many of them treat it like one)so bad comparison.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It was because of a slogan on the cake that was against the cake makers religion though.I'm pretty sure gay slogans were'nt on the cake shop menu just as bacon is'nt on a muslim food establishments menu

I never thought of it like that. You make a great point!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It was because of a slogan on the cake that was against the cake makers religion though.I'm pretty sure gay slogans were'nt on the cake shop menu just as bacon is'nt on a muslim food establishments menu.
Oh and veganism isn't a religion(although many of them treat it like one)so bad comparison.

Again, it's a poor comparison.

They made custom cakes that didn't come with terms and conditions or exceptions. They accepted the order and then took it back. That's completely different from your example of a Muslim Cafe where a Bacon sandwich wouldn't be on the menu to begin with. The Vegan example is a good one because it's exactly the same as what you are saying. You wouldn't go to a Muslim cafe expecting to have bacon, nor would you go to a Vegan establishment and expect meat to be on the menu.

That's completely different to a Bakery refusing custom on the grounds of sexuality. the bakery itself isn't associated with Christianity, only the owners so it's not like anyone would see it in the Yellow Pages and think 'Not gonna go there for my Gay Marriage cake, they are obviously Christians!'

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Again, it's a poor comparison.

They made custom cakes that didn't come with terms and conditions or exceptions. They accepted the order and then took it back. That's completely different from your example of a Muslim Cafe where a Bacon sandwich wouldn't be on the menu to begin with. The Vegan example is a good one because it's exactly the same as what you are saying. You wouldn't go to a Muslim cafe expecting to have bacon, nor would you go to a Vegan establishment and expect meat to be on the menu.

That's completely different to a Bakery refusing custom on the grounds of sexuality. the bakery itself isn't associated with Christianity, only the owners so it's not like anyone would see it in the Yellow Pages and think 'Not gonna go there for my Gay Marriage cake, they are obviously Christians!'

The cake shop accepted an order and changed their minds based on religious hoohar.

The airline accepted payment for the seat then moved the woman based on someone else religious hoohar. Where is the difference?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Again, it's a poor comparison.

They made custom cakes that didn't come with terms and conditions or exceptions. They accepted the order and then took it back. That's completely different from your example of a Muslim Cafe where a Bacon sandwich wouldn't be on the menu to begin with. The Vegan example is a good one because it's exactly the same as what you are saying. You wouldn't go to a Muslim cafe expecting to have bacon, nor would you go to a Vegan establishment and expect meat to be on the menu.

That's completely different to a Bakery refusing custom on the grounds of sexuality. the bakery itself isn't associated with Christianity, only the owners so it's not like anyone would see it in the Yellow Pages and think 'Not gonna go there for my Gay Marriage cake, they are obviously Christians!'

However this was in Northern Ireland.The cake makers probably did'nt think they would be asked for a gay wedding cake.Wedding in Northern Ireland does or did mean a man and a woman.A gay wedding cake would be exceptional circumstances over there and would not come under the usual 'wedding' banner.So gay marriage slogans on wedding cakes were also not on their menu.Just as bacon sarnies are not on a muslim cafe menu.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

That gay cake thing.From reading the article it was'nt that they would'nt serve them because they were gay.It was because that couple wanted a gay pressure group slogan on the cake.I mean would you go into a muslim cafe and demand they make you a bacon sarnie because you're a gay meat eater?Maybe take them to court if they refuse?

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

However this was in Northern Ireland.The cake makers probably did'nt think they would be asked for a gay wedding cake.Wedding in Northern Ireland does or did mean a man and a woman.A gay wedding cake would be exceptional circumstances over there and would not come under the usual 'wedding' banner.So gay marriage slogans on wedding cakes were also not on their menu.Just as bacon sarnies are not on a muslim cafe menu.

Discrimination against people based on their sexuality (which is what the bakery were found guilty of) is against the law, discrimination against people who have a preference for bacon isn't :/
The comparison only works if they normally sell bacon but refuse to sell it to a gay person (or they normally write slogans on their bacon but refuse to write a gay marriage slogan on one). It would only really work beyond that if bacon and bacon-eaters were a protected group with equal rights to lamb chops, but alas

The whole, 'they sell slogans but gay marriage slogans weren't on the menu' thing... the product they sell is customized slogans. So does the customer have a reasonable expectation to be served regardless of whether or not their slogan references gay marriage? Based on the law, yes they do. And as business owners it's the law they have to follow, their personal experiences of encountering gay people is irrelevant. Same as their personal views, or geography etc... the law doesn't stop applying to someone because they're not used to it or don't believe in it. They have every right to be surprised at the request, or to feel personally/morally/religiously against it, but none of those things change the law/what is reasonable for their customers to expect/their responsibilities as business owners.

(edit: sorry I know that's all completely off topic)

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Discrimination against people based on their sexuality (which is what the bakery were found guilty of) is against the law, discrimination against people who have a preference for bacon isn't :/
The comparison only works if they normally sell bacon but refuse to sell it to a gay person (or they normally write slogans on their bacon but refuse to write a gay marriage slogan on one). It would only really work beyond that if bacon and bacon-eaters were a protected group with equal rights to lamb chops, but alas

The whole, 'they sell slogans but gay marriage slogans weren't on the menu' thing... the product they sell is customized slogans. So does the customer have a reasonable expectation to be served regardless of whether or not their slogan references gay marriage? Based on the law, yes they do. And as business owners it's the law they have to follow, their personal experiences of encountering gay people is irrelevant. Same as their personal views, or geography etc... the law doesn't stop applying to someone because they're not used to it or don't believe in it. They have every right to be surprised at the request, or to feel personally/morally/religiously against it, but none of those things change the law/what is reasonable for their customers to expect/their responsibilities as business owners.

(edit: sorry I know that's all completely off topic)

However if gay marriage is against the law in that country then making a cake with a gay marriage slogan is endorsing crime.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

However if gay marriage is against the law in that country then making a cake with a gay marriage slogan is endorsing crime.

It's not endorsing a crime... even though gay marriage itself wasn't legalised, campaigning for it was perfectly legal. So the bakery weren't being asked to do anything that would contradict with any law; they weren't being asked to conduct a marriage ceremony, or endorse a marriage that was due to take place illegally, they were being asked to produce a slogan that was associated with a campaign (which again, is completely legal).
And there was no implication that by producing the slogan they would even be endorsing the cause, just as the case would have been for any other political/social etc slogan, they'd have produced it because it's what the customer wanted and it's the service they were offering - everything from the customers side was in line with the law as well as being what they'd reasonably expect from the business (which includes expecting that the business owners wouldn't consider themselves above the law because of their personal/religious beliefs and free to discriminate at will because of them, which is essentially how they acted and what their defense was).

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It was because of a slogan on the cake that was against the cake makers religion though.I'm pretty sure gay slogans were'nt on the cake shop menu just as bacon is'nt on a muslim food establishments menu.
Oh and veganism isn't a religion(although many of them treat it like one)so bad comparison.

You are making things up now in an attempt to justify their discrimination. :/

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You are making things up now in an attempt to justify their discrimination. :/

'Ashers Baking Company published a statement on its website defending its decision to refuse to bake the cake as the slogan above the puppets was in support of gay marriage'

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It was because of a slogan on the cake that was against the cake makers religion though.I'm pretty sure gay slogans were'nt on the cake shop menu just as bacon is'nt on a muslim food establishments menu.
Oh and veganism isn't a religion(although many of them treat it like one)so bad comparison.

That's quite a reach.

You said 'Muslim Cafe' I took that to be a cafe that caters to Muslim needs so it's not a bad comparison by bringing Vegan places into it because they too cater to that certain demographic. Either way you wouldn't expect to find Bacon at these places.

Neither of them compare to a bakery that doesn't seemingly cater to specific audiences like those examples do.