[jaxie]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Why would a little boy feel intimidated buying an ice cream from a lady dressed the same as his mother and other females in his circle?

I said I thought the person selling the ice cream looked intimidating, not necessarily that the child buying the ice cream thought so.

Of course I know she is oppressed and possibly might not mean to intimidate a teacup but a costume in all black with the eyes showing does look quite intimidating. Specially if the ice cream van, which is a business after all, gets around to streets where her outfit isn't the norm.

[arista]

"Even the lady selling ice cream from a van during the summer wears a burka?"


Shhhhhhhh. Kirk
The Italians Rossi Corp
Pay her far less than the minimum wage

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

"Even the lady selling ice cream from a van during the summer wears a burka?"


Shhhhhhhh. Kirk
The Italians Rossi Corp
Pay her far less than the minimum wage

[Kizzy]

And I agree it is all about conditioning, you see an intimidating figure...I see a woman in an ice cream van.

[Niamh.]

Stop getting personal with eachother...........blah blah..broken record etc etc

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And I agree it is all about conditioning, you see an intimidating figure...I see a woman in an ice cream van.

Actually, you see the eyes of a person, sex not verified. And that's exactly the point.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i see a bronze aged superstition that does not belong in this country

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i see a bronze aged superstition that does not belong in this country

You could say that about many religions.

[Niamh.]

I'm closing this thread the next time things get personal/you all start insulting eachother again

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You could say that about many religions.

But we are NOT discussing other religions, we are discussing a Muslim ice cream vendor in a niqab.

And No other religion compels its females to completely cover themselves up in this frankly hideous and intimidating fashion. To my knowledge anyway.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Stop getting personal with eachother...........blah blah..broken record etc etc

Spoiler:

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

Spoiler:

The REAL 'fuzz' is back.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And I agree it is all about conditioning, you see an intimidating figure...I see a woman in an ice cream van.

You see a woman in an ice cream van, I see conditioning and control.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

But we are NOT discussing other religions, we are discussing a Muslim ice cream vendor in a niqab.

And No other religion compels its females to completely cover themselves up in this frankly hideous and intimidating fashion. To my knowledge anyway.

It's not religious, it's cultural.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You see a woman in an ice cream van, I see conditioning and control.

Good for you.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's not religious, it's cultural.

Really?

[Quran 24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to God, O you believers, that you may succeed.

[Quran 33:59] O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Yes - the covering of a woman's body has evolved culturally into the custom of wearing the Niqab, but the original 'commands' are in the Qu'ran and you cannot get any more 'religious' than that.

Not in the REAL world which I inhabit anyway.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And I agree it is all about conditioning, you see an intimidating figure...I see a woman in an ice cream van.

Your view that opposes some other views that some Niqab wearing Muslim women are 'conditioned' into doing so, is frankly baffling Kizzy.

There are hundreds of complaints from oppressed Muslim women denouncing this very practice of being intimidated and threatened and conditioned into wearing these types of medieval garments against their will.

Many young 'Anglicised' Muslim girls have even been murdered by their extremist families for NOT obeying these strict dress codes.

And for further proof that these women are 'conditioned' into this; read this below from a young Muslim woman, actually note the terminology, and the tell me that she is not 'conditioned' and even 'brain-washed':

Mahmood Vesali, I've studied in seminary school

What is the philosophy of necessity of hijab?

1. Safety or security with all its aspects is seen as one of those issues that has been sufficiently taken into consideration in Islamic thoughts. ‘Nudity’, which means no or bad covering in the society, may lead to horrible consequences such as make up, self-ornamentation, and coquettish behavior if it is underestimated or given little attention.

It in turn causes men, especially young ones, to be exposed to constant nervous stimulation, inflammation and false excitement, which are ephemeral and transient. This excitement and inflammation is such that it may turn the individual into a mental patient and hence make him do such acts that may consequently become the source of other corruptions and sins; as some of the scientists have pointed out: “there is no critical incident in which a woman is not involved.”

2. A very brief review of families’ attempts in different communities and the statistical review of the reasons behind ‘divorce’, this horrible phenomenon, sheds light on the point that violating family’s privacy, increasing nudity in human society, and disintegration of families consequently lead to bitter and heart-rending phenomenon of “children of divorce”. In fact in the free market of nudity, at least in non-sexual stage, woman is seen as a ‘common good’, and marriage loses its sanctity and purity between the two people, who belong to each other, and every day men and women are entrapped by other men and women and hence their family life is weakened

‘Hijab’ is an Arabic word which literally means to put on, to cover, curtain, veil or covering (noun); however, among all these meanings, curtain or veil is more common and as a result it has led many people to suppose that Islam wants women to always stay at home behind the curtains and not to go out. In this regard, the great scholar, Martyr Morteza Motahhari states: “Covering for women in Islam means that in their interactions with men, women cover their bodies and don’t try to exhibit themselves or have coquettish behavior”.

[1] The related verses in Qur’an as well as jurists’ Fatwa in this regard refer to and highlight this principle. The module for covering in Islam can be achieved via Qur’an and tradition sources. In related verses, the term ‘hijab’ is not directly used. In other words, the verses in this regard, in holy chapters of either Noor or Al-Ahzaab indirectly refer to the limitations with regard to dress code and the interaction between men and women without using the word ‘hijab’.

So the wearing of 'Western' attire by women will turn MEN - especially the young ones - into Mental patients.

FFS.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Really?

[Quran 24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to God, O you believers, that you may succeed.

[Quran 33:59] O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Yes - the covering of a woman's body has evolved culturally into the custom of wearing the Niqab, but the original 'commands' are in the Qu'ran and you cannot get any more 'religious' than that.

Not in the REAL world which I inhabit anyway.

Do you have a link for this info?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Do you have a link for this info?

Er.....The Quran

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Good for you.

Not good for you when you throw the explanation of 'conditioning' into the mix to attack critics whilst constantly attempting to defend those most guilty of that. It sounds ridiculous.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Do you have a link for this info?

Yes - Any Qu'ran. I have my own.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Er.....The Quran

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Your view that opposes some other views that some Niqab wearing Muslim women are 'conditioned' into doing so, is frankly baffling Kizzy.

There are hundreds of complaints from oppressed Muslim women denouncing this very practice of being intimidated and threatened and conditioned into wearing these types of medieval garments against their will.

Many young 'Anglicised' Muslim girls have even been murdered by their extremist families for NOT obeying these strict dress codes.

And for further proof that these women are 'conditioned' into this; read this below from a young Muslim woman, actually note the terminology, and the tell me that she is not 'conditioned' and even 'brain-washed':

Mahmood Vesali, I've studied in seminary school

What is the philosophy of necessity of hijab?

1. Safety or security with all its aspects is seen as one of those issues that has been sufficiently taken into consideration in Islamic thoughts. ‘Nudity’, which means no or bad covering in the society, may lead to horrible consequences such as make up, self-ornamentation, and coquettish behavior if it is underestimated or given little attention.

It in turn causes men, especially young ones, to be exposed to constant nervous stimulation, inflammation and false excitement, which are ephemeral and transient. This excitement and inflammation is such that it may turn the individual into a mental patient and hence make him do such acts that may consequently become the source of other corruptions and sins; as some of the scientists have pointed out: “there is no critical incident in which a woman is not involved.”

2. A very brief review of families’ attempts in different communities and the statistical review of the reasons behind ‘divorce’, this horrible phenomenon, sheds light on the point that violating family’s privacy, increasing nudity in human society, and disintegration of families consequently lead to bitter and heart-rending phenomenon of “children of divorce”. In fact in the free market of nudity, at least in non-sexual stage, woman is seen as a ‘common good’, and marriage loses its sanctity and purity between the two people, who belong to each other, and every day men and women are entrapped by other men and women and hence their family life is weakened

‘Hijab’ is an Arabic word which literally means to put on, to cover, curtain, veil or covering (noun); however, among all these meanings, curtain or veil is more common and as a result it has led many people to suppose that Islam wants women to always stay at home behind the curtains and not to go out. In this regard, the great scholar, Martyr Morteza Motahhari states: “Covering for women in Islam means that in their interactions with men, women cover their bodies and don’t try to exhibit themselves or have coquettish behavior”.

[1] The related verses in Qur’an as well as jurists’ Fatwa in this regard refer to and highlight this principle. The module for covering in Islam can be achieved via Qur’an and tradition sources. In related verses, the term ‘hijab’ is not directly used. In other words, the verses in this regard, in holy chapters of either Noor or Al-Ahzaab indirectly refer to the limitations with regard to dress code and the interaction between men and women without using the word ‘hijab’.

So the wearing of 'Western' attire by women will turn MEN - especially the young ones - into Mental patients.

FFS.

I don't mean to be hyper critical but the tone of previous posts do not suggest that the well being of Muslim women are the uppermost in your thoughts in relation to this issue.
There are cultural issues that affect women predominantly the world over, they are being addressed from within those communities, to simply stand shouting and pointing from the sidelines is useless.
As is demonising any and all Muslims, this has been addressed many many times the religious and cultural differences of that faith are as diverse as the next.

I have also seen the passages you posted cross referenced with similar biblical old testament text in these threads many times, therefore this cherry picking of information can go on ad infinitum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...-passages.html

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;9052987]I don't mean to be hyper critical but the tone of previous posts do not suggest that the well being of Muslim women are the uppermost in your thoughts in relation to this issue.

More misrepresentation. Who the hell mentioned that "the well being of Muslim women are the uppermost" in my "thoughts in relation to this issue."?

I never did - anywhere. I clearly stated at the beginning of my post what the purpose of that post was:

"Your view that opposes some other views that some Niqab wearing Muslim women are 'conditioned' into doing so, is frankly baffling Kizzy.

There are hundreds of complaints from oppressed Muslim women denouncing this very practice of being intimidated and threatened and conditioned into wearing these types of medieval garments against their will.

Many young 'Anglicised' Muslim girls have even been murdered by their extremist families for NOT obeying these strict dress codes.

And for further proof that these women are 'conditioned' into this; read this below from a young Muslim woman, actually note the terminology, and the tell me that she is not 'conditioned' and even 'brain-washed': "

Now is not the above clear enough to define the purpose of my post, and NOWHERE do I mention or allude to; "the well being of Muslim women" being uppermost" in my "thoughts in relation to this issue."

You just made that up. :laugh - Just like you did this below:

"There are cultural issues that affect women predominantly the world over, they are being addressed from within those communities, to simply stand shouting and pointing from the sidelines is useless. "

More Deflection and totally meaningless and irrelevant within the context of my post.

In addition, what the hell does "to simply stand shouting and pointing from the sidelines is useless." actually mean? This is mere waffle in the hope of deflecting that you have no real argument Kizzy.

I am not shouting or pointing from any sideline, I am posting my view on a forum in response to points which you made that I do not agree with.

"As is demonising any and all Muslims, this has been addressed many many times the religious and cultural differences of that faith are as diverse as the next."

This above from you is disgusting and unfair.

I have NOT "Demonised ALL Muslims" either in this post OR ANY OTHER and the rest of your sentence is yet more deflective waffle.

"I have also seen the passages you posted cross referenced with similar biblical old testament text in these threads many times, therefore this cherry picking of information can go on ad infinitum."


WHAT "Cherry Picking of information"?

I used a Muslim Woman's OWN voluntary testimony to substantiate my rebuttal of your claim that some Muslim women are NOT 'conditioned' into wearing Niqabs.

Now that I have - and destroyed your claim - you once again start making spurious claims in your response posts about what I have and have not written, but the truth of all this is here for anyone impartial to read.

If you do not WANT to debate, then stop trying to always have the last word - especially when that last word is false.

Incidentally, your link to Biblical Passages is totally irrelevant deflection in the context of this post and this entire thread.

[Kizzy]

You just made that up. :laugh - Just like you did this below:

"There are cultural issues that affect women predominantly the world over, they are being addressed from within those communities,

You don't feel there are cultural issues that affect women predominantly the world over then?.. What about FGM?

You haven't destroyed my point at all I stated it was all about conditioning and it is, you have confused yourself. I will continue to have as many words as I like, if I wish to counter points with links, comments or slides of my holiday in Bognor...I will.