[Firewire]

Originally Posted by jaxie

To be fair though Joey, as another Scot said on last week's question time, Scotland already voted to stay in the UK, the EU vote they voted as part of the UK. Therefore they have to respect the result the UK gave. It's not a separate vote.

Not when the Scottish people voted to stay as part of the UK with the knowledge of being part of the EU

That's changed now

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Not when the Scottish people voted to stay as part of the UK with the knowledge of being part of the EU

That's changed now

That's not entirely accurate. At the time of the referendum the EU said Scotland wasn't guaranteed membership of the EU if it left the UK. I don't recall anyone promising that they would remain regardless of what the rest of the UK did. Had Scotland voted for independence they would have been out of the EU anyway.

What it boils down to is that the EU doesn't really want to prop up Scotland.

As a Scot can you explain why you want to be part of a federal Europe with little control over your own country rather than in a UK with increasing devolved powers and a financial shoulder to lean on?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Not when the Scottish people voted to stay as part of the UK with the knowledge of being part of the EU

That's changed now

You are right and it has changed considerably from what the Scots were told.

Also as to this thread, not one single Nation of the UK voted unanimously anyway, either way as to leave or remain.
That's blatantly obvious from the percentages won for each side.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You are right and it has changed considerably from what the Scots were told.

Also as to this thread, not one single Nation of the UK voted unanimously anyway, either way as to leave or remain.
That's blatantly obvious from the percentages won for each side.

The majority however did vote to leave. The majority of the UK.

Forgive me for not quoting from your other post just feeling a bit lazy but they weren't told the best way to remain in the EU was to stay in the UK. They were more or less told by the EU that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK. If Scotland had voted to be independent, they wouldn't have been in the EU anyway.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

The majority however did vote to leave. The majority of the UK.

Forgive me for not quoting from your other post just feeling a bit lazy but they weren't told the best way to remain in the EU was to stay in the UK. They were more or less told by the EU that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK. If Scotland had voted to be independent, they wouldn't have been in the EU anyway.

Jaxie, I am not going to get into a tit for tat again with respect.

However either you didn't watch all the referendum campaign at the time of the independence vote or are choosing to ignore certain things said in it.

At the point where it looked like the independence vote could be lost,the statement was made, that if Scotland voted for independence it could not be in the EU, its best way to remain in the EU was to vote to stay in the UK.

Now you mentioned Question Time before, if you watch it regularly, MP after MP from Scotland states clearly, the Scots were told,a vote to stay in the UK was their only way of staying in the EU.

That may be something you do not want to believe but even Conservative MPs do not challenge that statement when on that programme,also on the Daily Politics and Sunday politics too, Andrew Neill himself has put that very question and statement to govt. MPs and Ministers.

Also we know the majority voted to leave across the UK, I still point out only thanks to the disproportionate larger numbers of electorate in England however.
This thread is not about that however, it is about highlighting a minority of voters in Scotland who in a tiny number of constituencies voted leave rather than remain.

Now you cannot reasonably expect no comeback when highlighting that, not to then have pointed out there were votes to remain,which were opposite your own view across the UK too.
With far more in fact percentage wise of the opposite view to you even in England, with as I said, 47% of English voters voting to remain as against only the 38% of Scots voting to leave.
The majority of the UK did vote to leave, the UK as I have said on here many times is not just England however and it is only England that carried this whole result.
In fact had England voted and all its votes counted and announced first, it was a waste of time the rest of the UK voting at all as all the might of English votes wiped all the rest of the votes cast out, no matter the majorities won.

Again however,since Scotland's vote was far more decisive than England's was, as was Northern Ireland's too.
Then as the leader of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has every right to do all she can to ensure Scotland's vote is respected.
Nothing in the opening post, or article in included, undermines in my view that right she has to stand up for her voters.

Nearly two thirds of her voters said they want to remain in the EU, dress it up, analyse it all you like to pick holes in it but that is a fact, and it is also the biggest margin as a percentage,(24%,nearly a quarter),of electorate voting in any of the 4 UK supposed equal as to status Nations.

No one is saying the overall vote of the UK was not to leave, locks should have been put on the vote for me but they were not, however to try to diminish the large strength of the Scottish vote to remain in the EU, by highlighting a few constituencies narrowly voting leave, is an odd one to me.

However as I said, lets look at England then too in that case and its much smaller result of an only 6% as a percentage majority for leave, and equally look at the areas that voted to remain there too, if it is in order to highlight any opposing votes as to the actual remain result in Scotland.

I see you choose to ignore my saying that no Nation in the UK,( or area even), voted unanimously one way or the other.
Yet this thread is making the strange point that not all Scots unanimously voted to remain.
Why?
Since no one has ever said that how it is relevant.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Jaxie, I am not going to get into a tit for tat again with respect.

However either you didn't watch all the referendum campaign at the time of the independence vote or are choosing to ignore certain things said in it.

At the point where it looked like the independence vote could be lost,the statement was made, that if Scotland voted for independence it could not be in the EU, its best way to remain in the EU was to vote to stay in the UK.

Now you mentioned Question Time before, if you watch it regularly, MP after MP from Scotland states clearly, the Scots were told,a vote to stay in the UK was their only way of staying in the EU.

That may be something you do not want to believe but even Conservative MPs do not challenge that statement when on that programme,also on the Daily Politics and Sunday politics too, Andrew Neill himself has put that very question and statement to govt. MPs and Ministers.

Also we know the majority voted to leave across the UK, I still point out only thanks to the disproportionate larger numbers of electorate in England however.
This thread is not about that however, it is about highlighting a minority of voters in Scotland who in a tiny number of constituencies voted leave rather than remain.

Now you cannot reasonably expect no comeback when highlighting that, not to then have pointed out there were votes to remain,which were opposite your own view across the UK too.
With far more in fact percentage wise of the opposite view to you even in England, with as I said, 47% of English voters voting to remain as against only the 38% of Scots voting to leave.
The majority of the UK did vote to leave, the UK as I have said on here many times is not just England however and it is only England that carried this whole result.
In fact had England voted and all its votes counted and announced first, it was a waste of time the rest of the UK voting at all as all the might of English votes wiped all the rest of the votes cast out, no matter the majorities won.

Again however,since Scotland's vote was far more decisive than England's was, as was Northern Ireland's too.
Then as the leader of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has every right to do all she can to ensure Scotland's vote is respected.
Nothing in the opening post, or article in included, undermines in my view that right she has to stand up for her voters.

Nearly two thirds of her voters said they want to remain in the EU, dress it up, analyse it all you like to pick holes in it but that is a fact, and it is also the biggest margin as a percentage,(24%,nearly a quarter),of electorate voting in any of the 4 UK supposed equal as to status Nations.

No one is saying the overall vote of the UK was not to leave, locks should have been put on the vote for me but they were not, however to try to diminish the large strength of the Scottish vote to remain in the EU, by highlighting a few constituencies narrowly voting leave, is an odd one to me.

However as I said, lets look at England then too in that case and its much smaller result of an only 6% as a percentage majority for leave, and equally look at the areas that voted to remain there too, if it is in order to highlight any opposing votes as to the actual remain result in Scotland.

I see you choose to ignore my saying that no Nation in the UK,( or area even), voted unanimously one way or the other.
Yet this thread is making the strange point that not all Scots unanimously voted to remain.
Why?
Since no one has ever said that how it is relevant.

As I said the vote to leave the EU wasn't about the different parts of the union and how they voted but about how the whole UK voted. In a vote where each person had a vote that counted towards the vote how different regions/nations voted is largely irrelevant.
The referendum was about each individual's opinion.

Don't know what you mean by titfortat. Are you implying I shouldn't respond if you post to me unless I agree with everything you said?
If you don't want me to respond it's easy enough not to respond to me. Otherwise I don't really get where you are coming from here.

The Scots were told by the EU, no UK no EU. If they were independent Scotland wouldn't be in the EU, so to try to claim another referendum based on leaving the EU doesn't maoe sense.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

As I said the vote to leave the EU wasn't about the different parts of the union and how they voted but about how the whole UK voted. In a vote where each person had a vote that counted towards the vote how different regions/nations voted is largely irrelevant.
The referendum was about each individual's opinion.

Don't know what you mean by titfortat. Are you implying I shouldn't respond if you post to me unless I agree with everything you said?
If you don't want me to respond it's easy enough not to respond to me. Otherwise I don't really get where you are coming from here.

The Scots were told by the EU, no UK no EU. If they were independent Scotland wouldn't be in the EU, so to try to claim another referendum based on leaving the EU doesn't maoe sense.

Tit for tat is going round in circles, I have already said several times now and endlessly since the referendum on all the other host of EU threads, that Scotland was told its best way to stay the EU was to vote to stay in the UK.

That has been borne out on Question Time repeatedly,a programme you mentioned and in many interviews Andrew Neill has had with Conservative and other politicians too on Daily Politics and Sunday Politics programmes.

Tit for tat is me saying that and knowing that, then you repeatedly coming back with they were not told that.
So what is the point of that tit for tat.
I suggest respectively you watch those programmes because that same point is likely to be raised many times more yet anyway.

Also yet again you choose to sidestep my point as to why should it be relevant to highlight the small amount of leave voters and small number of constituencies voting leave in Scotland,
While avoiding looking at all the remain votes all across the others who voted leave in the UK ,which were actually much larger minorities than the much smaller one in Scotland voting leave.

That is what I came on this thread to address not to end up in another long drawn out, likely ending in a mess, of tit for tat of yet another EU thread.

By the way at no time since the referendum vote have the Scots been told no UK no EU for them.
The EU, simple has courteously as to the UK, just not engaged on solid talks on the issue until the UK has formally applied to leave, which is the right thing to do as well.
There is at present no ruling at all that somehow Scotland could not get membership of the EU or even a btter deal that possibly the rest of the UK could be left with in the end.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Tit for tat is going round in circles, I have already said several times now and endlessly since the referendum on all the other host of EU threads, that Scotland was told its best way to stay the EU was to vote to stay in the UK.

That has been borne out on Question Time repeatedly,a programme you mentioned and in many interviews Andrew Neill has had with Conservative and other politicians too on Daily Politics and Sunday Politics programmes.

Tit for tat is me saying that and knowing that, then you repeatedly coming back with they were not told that.
So what is the point of that tit for tat.
I suggest respectively you watch those programmes because that same point is likely to be raised many times more yet anyway.

Also yet again you choose to sidestep my point as to why should it be relevant to highlight the small amount of leave voters and small number of constituencies voting leave in Scotland,
While avoiding looking at all the remain votes all across the others who voted leave in the UK ,which were actually much larger minorities than the much smaller one in Scotland voting leave.

That is what I came on this thread to address not to end up in another long drawn out, likely ending in a mess, of tit for tat of yet another EU thread.

By the way at no time since the referendum vote have the Scots been told no UK no EU for them.
The EU, simple has courteously as to the UK, just not engaged on solid talks on the issue until the UK has formally applied to leave, which is the right thing to do as well.
There is at present no ruling at all that somehow Scotland could not get membership of the EU or even a btter deal that possibly the rest of the UK could be left with in the end.

The bold is what the EU said to them at the time of the Scottish referendum.
Of course it's always possible this view would change, may change, might not be so set in stone as it was at the time.

And in fact this has been broached on Question Time which I do watch regularly, and said to correct an SNP MP!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...o-9131925.html

That's one news report but there were several at the time from different people I recall. Don't really have time now to hunt them all down.

Spain and France have also both said in the press they would veto an attempt by Scotland to join the EU. Spain is very much against it because of the Catalonia region that also would like independence.

I'm not arguing with you for the sake of arguing, I'm just explaining what I remember reading at the time.