[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

We both know where foreign aid goes. The entire sum of money can be seen in bar graphs. There is no axis for weaponary, that is just premade assumptions that you have unrightly brought into the discussion to further a point. If 0% of foregin aid goes to weaponary across the world, guess how much goes into weaponary in Pakistan. Sorry for the KS2 math quiz but I think we're really stuggling to get past this hurdle.

You are genuinely missing the point Withano.

And that point is - NOT that our Foreign Aid billions MIGHT be being DIRECTLY spent on buying weaponry by the Pakistani Government but that, if they can AFFORD Nuclear Weapons, then they can afford to help their own people in need, and so by us continuing to pump money into the Pakistani Government's grubby little hands, we are doing NOTHING to make them re-think their priorities.

There is an argument that OUR own Government has its priorities wrong by renewing Trident while our poor citizens get poorer, and our homeless problem and other problems degenerate, but WE do NOT receive Billions of pounds in Foreign Aid handouts from other countries.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are genuinely missing the point Withano.

And that point is - NOT that our Foreign Aid billions MIGHT be being DIRECTLY spent on buying weaponry by the Pakistani Government but that, if they can AFFORD Nuclear Weapons, then they can afford to help their own people in need, and so by us continuing to pump money into the Pakistani Government's grubby little hands, we are doing NOTHING to make them re-think their priorities.

There is an argument that OUR own Government has its priorities wrong by renewing Trident while our poor citizens get poorer, and our homeless problem and other problems degenerate, but WE do NOT receive Billions of pounds in Foreign Aid handouts from other countries.

Actually, you missed the point by not reading through the thread (again ). I completely acknowledge that foreign aid would not go towards weaponary, that was simply the leading point in the argument from the opposing side. I agree, its utterly irrelevant, and frankly distasteful... Not to mention, simply incorrect.

My opinions on the second point you brought up can also be found on the thread. (Really should read through it before jumping in for a fight ).. Should foreign aid go towards countries that can afford weapons? In my summary yes, lets not kill off innocent children because we dont like their prime-minister.

If you did read through the thread , you would have saw that you and I would have similar opinions had the title been 'is [any country] distributing their wealth appropriately', but in a hurry for an argument or a hasty conclusion, you missed this. The thread is about foreign aid, and I'd like to think that you wouldnt want to discontinue or limit funding to Pakistan to teach the country a lesson? I'm sure that isn't what you're implying, that would give the thread an entirely new dark route, which I wouldnt walk you down.

I'm sure follow-up questions that you have to any of this can also be found on the thread, I don't care too much for repeating any of it, so get reading .

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Actually, you missed the point by not reading through the thread. I completely acknowledge that foreign aid would not go towards weaponary, that was simply the leading point in the argument from the opposing side. I agree, its utterly irrelevant, and frankly distasteful.

My opinions on the second point you brought up can also be found on the thread. (Really should read through it before jumping in for a fight).. Should foreign aid go towards countries that can afford weapons? In my summary yes, lets not kill off innocent children because we dont like their prime-minister.

I'm sure follow-up questions that you have to any of this can also be found on the thread, I don't care too much for repeating any of it, so get reading.

There it is - I wondered where your customary aggression and unnecessary unpleasantness was tonight.

Perhaps it only surfaces when you are losing a debate. Either way, there is NO need for it.

I believe that I have been civil with you.

Anyway, I do not need to read through the thread - I ALWAYS read EVERY post on any thread which I join.

Suffice it to say, that I BASED my response upon the post of yours to Jaxie which I quoted.

Here is your post - YOUR own words, I believe?:

Posted by Withano View Post

"We both know where foreign aid goes. The entire sum of money can be seen in bar graphs. There is no axis for weaponary, that is just premade assumptions that you have unrightly brought into the discussion to further a point. If 0% of foregin aid goes to weaponary across the world, guess how much goes into weaponary in Pakistan. Sorry for the KS2 math quiz but I think we're really stuggling to get past this hurdle."

And here for clarity, is my response - the response which you seem to take such umbrage with:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post

"You are genuinely missing the point Withano.

And that point is - NOT that our Foreign Aid billions MIGHT be being DIRECTLY spent on buying weaponry by the Pakistani Government but that, if they can AFFORD Nuclear Weapons, then they can afford to help their own people in need, and so by us continuing to pump money into the Pakistani Government's grubby little hands, we are doing NOTHING to make them re-think their priorities.

There is an argument that OUR own Government has its priorities wrong by renewing Trident while our poor citizens get poorer, and our homeless problem and other problems degenerate, but WE do NOT receive Billions of pounds in Foreign Aid handouts from other countries."

Now, I would say, that BASED on your own words in YOUR own post, that my response was perfectly valid and appropriate.

But there is no need to fall out Withano, we are only debating.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There it is - I wondered where your customary aggression and unnecessary unpleasantness was tonight.

Perhaps it only surfaces when you are losing a debate. Either way, there is NO need for it.

I believe that I have been civil with you.

Anyway, I do not need to read through the thread - I ALWAYS read EVERY post on any thread which I join.

Suffice it to say, that I BASED my response upon the post of yours to Jaxie which I quoted.

Here is your post - YOUR own words, I believe?:

Posted by Withano View Post

"We both know where foreign aid goes. The entire sum of money can be seen in bar graphs. There is no axis for weaponary, that is just premade assumptions that you have unrightly brought into the discussion to further a point. If 0% of foregin aid goes to weaponary across the world, guess how much goes into weaponary in Pakistan. Sorry for the KS2 math quiz but I think we're really stuggling to get past this hurdle."

And here for clarity, is my response - the response which you seem to take such umbrage with:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post

"You are genuinely missing the point Withano.

And that point is - NOT that our Foreign Aid billions MIGHT be being DIRECTLY spent on buying weaponry by the Pakistani Government but that, if they can AFFORD Nuclear Weapons, then they can afford to help their own people in need, and so by us continuing to pump money into the Pakistani Government's grubby little hands, we are doing NOTHING to make them re-think their priorities.

There is an argument that OUR own Government has its priorities wrong by renewing Trident while our poor citizens get poorer, and our homeless problem and other problems degenerate, but WE do NOT receive Billions of pounds in Foreign Aid handouts from other countries."

Now, I would say, that BASED on your own words in YOUR own post, that my response was perfectly valid and appropriate.

But there is no need to fall out Withano, we are only debating.

Youve missed the point Kirk.. For clarity though, remind me. Cancel foreign aid to Pakistan, limit ir, or keep it. If it was enitely up to you right now. Keep in mind, some of these options would kill innocent children.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Youve missed the point Kirk.. For clarity though, remind me. Cancel foreign aid to Pakistan, limit ir, or keep it. If it was enitely up to you right now. Keep in mind, some of these options would kill innocent children.

I'll answer as well if I may. I'd look at it, delve deeply and find out what use it was being put to before making a decision.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'll answer as well if I may. I'd look at it, delve deeply and find out what use it was being put to before making a decision.

Decent answer, you havent killed off innocent children yet. Not the best answer you could have given, but up there. Lets just hope water sanitaion, medication, vaccines and education are good enough uses for you by the time you conclude, otherwise the thread will go horribly dark.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Decent answer, you havent killed off innocent children yet. Not the best answer you could have given, but up there. Lets just hope water sanitaion, medication, vaccines and education are good enough uses for you by the time you conclude, otherwise the thread will go horribly dark.

Excellent point, similar to my 'where does my tax go' post on page 2 in that even if the portion of tax you pay did find it's way to Pakistan, it may for the peace of mind of some to imagine they are providing any of the benefits you mention.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Excellent point, similar to my 'where does my tax go' post on page 2 in that even if the portion of tax you pay did find it's way to Pakistan, it may for the peace of mind of some to imagine they are providing any of the benefits you mention.

Oh yes.... Right then.

Why then do you - self-admittedly - repeatedly submit NEGATIVE, CRITICAL, and DEMEANING posts which attack the policies of THIS Government?

'Take your own medicine Doctor', and simply PRETEND to yourself that all your tax money is being spent by the Government on Housing the Homeless, Increasing Benefits for EVERY CLAIMANT, Building New Hospitals, why, and even paying the Campaign Costs for Jeremy Corbyn's next attempt at being Prime Minister.

Go on Kizzy - close your eyes and dream away.

The above MIGHT work for you, but for some of us others, NOTHING will suffice, except KNOWING that our hard earned, much self-needed tax monies are NOT simply being handed over in any 'Willy Nilly. Legs Akimbo, Dip Yer Bread In' fashion to CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS as 'Foreign Aid', only to be squandered or worse, WHEN A HUGE SECTION OF OUR OWN PEOPLE ARE INCREASINGLY IN NEED OF URGENT HELP.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Oh yes.... Right then.

Why then do you - self-admittedly - repeatedly submit NEGATIVE, CRITICAL, and DEMEANING posts which attack the policies of THIS Government?

'Take your own medicine Doctor', and simply PRETEND to yourself that all your tax money is being spent by the Government on Housing the Homeless, Increasing Benefits for EVERY CLAIMANT, Building New Hospitals, why, and even paying the Campaign Costs for Jeremy Corbyn's next attempt at being Prime Minister.

Go on Kizzy - close your eyes and dream away.

The above MIGHT work for you, but for some of us others, NOTHING will suffice, except KNOWING that our hard earned, much self-needed tax monies are NOT simply being handed over in any 'Willy Nilly. Legs Akimbo, Dip Yer Bread In' fashion to CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS as 'Foreign Aid', only to be squandered or worse, WHEN A HUGE SECTION OF OUR OWN PEOPLE ARE INCREASINGLY IN NEED OF URGENT HELP.

Because I am opposed to the conservative ideology, however I accept I am not in control of what the govt does with income tax once collected :/
Therefore I do hope it is a beneficial cause wherever it lands.

Yes they are and as we are a first world country not a developing nation you would have thought that we would have the needy catered for wouldn't you? And yet we appear to be hell bent on making the gulf between the haves and have nots wider, or abandoning whole subsections of society altogether via government policy.

I'm not naive enough to believe that even should foreign aid end tomorrow that every UK citizen would have a warm safe bed and a full belly.

[Ammi]

..I was thinking about this a bit yesterday, about Pakistan in particular and I guess that them having nuclear weapons so giving them 'power' as a country in terms of ally etc...also is what maybe helps with trade and bringing much needed foreign aid in...so that's a bit of a complicated one also because they may not be given so much aid without the weapons spending, their importance as a non nuclear country would be lesser..?...


..anyways, I do think that government aid is very much needed to continue and especially to prevent diseases etc with improved sanitation and vaccines as Withano has mentioned...

[Livia]

We give more in aid than any other country except the USA. So it astounds me that the first thing I read on this forum is Withano claiming we are the most corrupt nation in the world and that only Foreign Aid is saving us. What complete and utter bullsh1t. When people knock out country it just demonstrates a profounbd lack of knowledge.

Why are some countries still in need of aid? Because despite decades of cash they still can't sort themselves out because of civil and religious war, because the leader is feeding cash straight into his treasury, or maybe buying himself a new private jet. We've been digging wells in Africa since Victorian times and yet we're still seeing adverts about how kids are having to drink water than animals have pissed in.

While we have people sleeping on our streets and dying because they have to choose between turning on the heat and eating, then no money should go abroad. If people want to donate personally, knock yourself out.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

We give more in aid than any other country except the USA. So it astounds me that the first thing I read on this forum is Withano claiming we are the most corrupt nation in the world and that only Foreign Aid is saving us. What complete and utter bullsh1t. When people knock out country it just demonstrates a profounbd lack of knowledge.

Why are some countries still in need of aid? Because despite decades of cash they still can't sort themselves out because of civil and religious war, because the leader is feeding cash straight into his treasury, or maybe buying himself a new private jet. We've been digging wells in Africa since Victorian times and yet we're still seeing adverts about how kids are having to drink water than animals have pissed in.

While we have people sleeping on our streets and dying because they have to choose between turning on the heat and eating, then no money should go abroad. If people want to donate personally, knock yourself out.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

We give more in aid than any other country except the USA. So it astounds me that the first thing I read on this forum is Withano claiming we are the most corrupt nation in the world and that only Foreign Aid is saving us. What complete and utter bullsh1t. When people knock out country it just demonstrates a profounbd lack of knowledge.

Why are some countries still in need of aid? Because despite decades of cash they still can't sort themselves out because of civil and religious war, because the leader is feeding cash straight into his treasury, or maybe buying himself a new private jet. We've been digging wells in Africa since Victorian times and yet we're still seeing adverts about how kids are having to drink water than animals have pissed in.

While we have people sleeping on our streets and dying because they have to choose between turning on the heat and eating, then no money should go abroad. If people want to donate personally, knock yourself out.

Christ what source did you use to work out Britain isnt currently or historically corrupt? The bnp daily? If you want to cancel or limit foreign aid and effectively kill off a few thousand children then I dont particularly wanna talk with you about the issue, but I think you should at least accept that compassion ranks higher on some peoples priorities than it does on yours.
USA and UK dont actually distribute the most considering their respective wealth ("profound lack of knowledge" seeming misplaced in your post) and homelessness is a separate issue (around the world) which needs dealing with. Removing all foreign aid for UK problems is grossly immoral, selfish and naive really. Killing off thousands of children to help our homeless is a horrid conclusion which I sincerely hope, you just didnt think through enough instead of genuinely believe.

A homeless guy is contemplating shelter or food and gets -some- help
A poverty stricken child from the other side of the world is dying of a preventable disease and gets -some- help

Why you want to remove aid entirely to one and use that money to go towards solving some issues partially for the other is beyond me. But it is disgusting.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Christ what source did you use to work out Britain isnt currently or historically corrupt? The bnp daily? If you want to cancel or limit foreign aid and effectively kill off a few thousand children then I dont particularly wanna talk with you about the issue, but I think you should at least accept that compassion ranks higher on some peoples priorities than it does on yours.
USA and UK dont actually distribute the most considering their respective wealth ("profound lack of knowledge" seeming misplaced in your post) and homelessness is a separate issue (around the world) which needs dealing with. Removing all foreign aid for UK problems is grossly immoral, selfish and naive really. Killing off thousands of children to help our homeless is a horrid conclusion which I sincerely hope, you just didnt think through enough instead of genuinely believe.

A homeless guy is contemplating shelter or food and gets -some- help
A poverty stricken child from the other side of the world is dying of a preventable disease and gets -some- help

Why you want to remove aid entirely to one and use that money to go towards solving some issues partially for the other is beyond me. But it is disgusting.

Sorry but you aren't convincing people with your constant attemped guilt trip comments about killing children. We are not responsible for The world's ills. There comes a point when we have to give priority to our own.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Sorry but you aren't convincing people with your constant attemped guilt trip comments about killing children. We are not responsible for The world's ills. There comes a point when we have to give priority to our own.

Hahah, this isnt a guilt trip, this is a fact. And its grim if youre comfortable with it, a lot appear to be more than comfortable - practically promoting it. Grim.

We do already give priority to our own. Weird thing to say. What you really want to say is that its time to give everything to our own? Grim.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Hahah, this isnt a guilt trip, this is a fact. And its grim if youre comfortable with it, a lot appear to be more than comfortable - practically promoting it. Grim.

We do already give priority to our own. Weird thing to say. What you really want to say is that its time to give everything to our own? Grim.

If you say so.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Hahah, this isnt a guilt trip, this is a fact. And its grim if youre comfortable with it, a lot appear to be more than comfortable - practically promoting it. Grim.

We do already give priority to our own. Weird thing to say. What you really want to say is that its time to give everything to our own? Grim.

Why is it grim to help our own, if you had to choose between a family member who needed help to pay a bill or donate to a charity and you couldn't afford to do both what would you do ?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Why is it grim to help our own, if you had to choose between a family member who needed help to pay a bill or donate to a charity and you couldn't afford to do both what would you do ?

Helping "your own" isnt grim (the term our own is a little grim but thats not the point that youve missed) the point that you missed it that it is grim to cease help of those that you dont consider "your own", simply because they are not "your own".
The point you missed it that its grim to let those who you dont consider "your own" to die because you want those that you do consider "your own" to be slightly more comfortable.
Its grim That some people would rather limit funding to one group of people to maximise funding to "their own" effectively and indirectly killing literally thousands, instead of keeping a rational compromise of killing close to 0, Its completely grim.

And to be fair, there was only one in the thread that repeated that this is their wish after their initial post - everyone else has either said that they would research more into it or have avoided the question completely after their initial grim rant. so to give credit, most arent as bad as Ive made out, but many posts in here are completely grim and indirectly murderous.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Helping "your own" isnt grim (the term our own is a little grim but thats not the point that youve missed) the point that you missed it that it is grim to cease help of those that you dont consider "your own", simply because they are not "your own".
The point you missed it that its grim to let those who you dont consider "your own" to die because you want those that you do consider "your own" to be slightly more comfortable.
Its grim That some people would rather limit funding to one group of people to maximise it to "their own" effectively killing thousands, instead of keeping a rational compromise of killing close to 0, Its completely grim.

Even if we didn't have enough of 'our own' to help, as mentioned in a previous post, whatever we do it never stops. No lessons are ever learned.

If like more developed countries ipeople stopped having so many children they can't possibly afford and dooming them to a life of pain and suffering instead of expecting other countries to foot the bill, there would be a lot less suffering. Does being poor stop people from caring about the poverty they bring their children into.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Even if we didn't have enough of 'our own' to help, as mentioned in a previous post, whatever we do it never stops. No lessons are ever learned.

If like more developed countries ipeople stopped having so many children they can't possibly afford and dooming them to a life of pain and suffering instead of expecting other countries to foot the bill, there would be a lot less suffering. Does being poor stop people from caring about the poverty they bring their children into.

I dont even believe you understand what you're going on about anymore.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I dont even believe you understand what you're going on about anymore.

Having child after child with not enough food to feed them is cruel. You don't have to be educated to realise that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

We give more in aid than any other country except the USA. So it astounds me that the first thing I read on this forum is Withano claiming we are the most corrupt nation in the world and that only Foreign Aid is saving us. What complete and utter bullsh1t. When people knock out country it just demonstrates a profounbd lack of knowledge.

Why are some countries still in need of aid? Because despite decades of cash they still can't sort themselves out because of civil and religious war, because the leader is feeding cash straight into his treasury, or maybe buying himself a new private jet. We've been digging wells in Africa since Victorian times and yet we're still seeing adverts about how kids are having to drink water than animals have pissed in.

While we have people sleeping on our streets and dying because they have to choose between turning on the heat and eating, then no money should go abroad. If people want to donate personally, knock yourself out.

Man, I REALLY MISS YOU.

[Maru]

The urgency to address our social welfare programs and failing infrastructure should be priority #1. As that would hinder our ability to not only help ourselves, but help others. The problem... we don't have a modern day Alexander Hamilton who is willing to look at these programs recursively and figure out just how deep in the hole we are in. So for all we know we may be in a state of emergency. Instead, our leadership is too busy buying votes and addressing society's emotional arguments rather than taking a fine toothed comb to our quite over-sized, overly complex tax code, national budget, social welfare programs, etc...all needs to be overhauled to stay maintainable.

Anyway, it is my belief... if this were to be discovered and we find out we are in deep hole, they need to shut off all aid and declare a state of emergency. There are areas in our deep metros, centers of poverty and crime that are really hurting. There is also risk of other communities that should this continue to go unchecked, could grow exponentially. We are already seeing a need for law enforcement costs to rise...which would just be another line item to add to our national debt if the cities then have to turn to federal (i.e. state of emergency) to address these rising costs.

Our jails are full, our average law enforcement officer has an increasingly large amount of roles to fulfill... meanwhile, we are not addressing these problems in any form, except in 'social welfare' programs that are growing our national debt to levels it's never been... it's in our interest to get back to being as independent as possible, to deal with these issues, to bring back the middle class... and honestly, nobody will starve. Philanthropy is alive and well in our nations. When those people get back on their feet, people will donate... just as they already do now.

This is also ignoring the elephants in the room, the segments of our world population/local communities that actively choose to stay the course... because they depend on this income to maintain their way of life (rich or poor).

My husband has told me numerous stories of people coming to mental health detentions that have said plain and clear, they are there for the free drugs (in the form of pharmaceuticals) and purposefully get into trouble so they can game the system. Instead, the DOJ (Department of Justice) wants to give them even more incentive/room to abuse the system than than afford us more officers which would help to better to keep situations under control (i.e. lessen brutality) and also to give those with mental health issues the attention and dignity ... the help they do deserve.

Personally, I have no problems with giving out aid... but it's well proven the enormous amount of trouble that is brewing with regards to our budgets, our welfare problems... and instead we've chosen to pass the buck for the past 10 to 15 years. Yet, our politicians continue writing blank checks or otherwise adding to our debt rather than addressing these issues. If we don't act on these signs, it could take us all under... and worse, may happen at a time when it is 20X more expensive to fix than it is now. Taking the global economy with it.

So in short... if we comb through these issues and still find we have the cash flow to spare, then sure, we should pick and choose and selectively choose who to aid (i.e. not aiding countries deeply rooted in terrorism) as that would be the moral thing to do... however, it needs to be a set with a timeline... otherwise we need to stop aid and put ourselves in a state of emergency to get these issues under control. They are also contributing substantially to our social issues as well, which are also growing at an alarmingly rate... especially police brutality, various poverty stricken minority communities (such as New Orleans post-Katrina), kids leaving school only to find a lack of jobs (while carrying a mortgage sized student loan payment monthly), rising costs of medical which strips everyone's bottom line, rising taxes on small businesses (which leads to chains/monopolies)... oh and all our environmental issues... etc

My concern is if we continue to ignore these issues, soon it will be so devastatingly expensive to fix, i.e. that we will be in a massively deep hole and then we will all be in trouble... including countries where the situation is already desperate.

My political take on this too is we should never give aid to countries that are deeply embedded in or otherwise in bed with terrorist organizations, sects, movements of any kind... i.e. if you make it a comfortable battleground for these people, you should expect the rest of the world to turn their noses up to you come time you need anything. Instead, we may end up in bed with them... for oil, for contacts, for intelligence, whatever reasoning one can justify such things...

I know personally many family members and friends who have donated time, energy and materials to different causes over the years. I am involved in animal rescue myself. My grandmother alone, has donated over $5,000 yearly of her own income to charitable causes... and she is on a fixed income There are positive acts happening all around us... but some reason, these acts mean very little to people in comparison to dragging our government's into philanthropy when I know at least my own government in particular has shown repeatedly it's epic amount of greed, poor spending habits and waste of taxpayer money and resources to any cause. I would better trust my donated funds to the source rather than... a govt who doesn't pick and choose, but instead squanders our funds for God knows what...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

We give more in aid than any other country except the USA. So it astounds me that the first thing I read on this forum is Withano claiming we are the most corrupt nation in the world and that only Foreign Aid is saving us. What complete and utter bullsh1t. When people knock out country it just demonstrates a profounbd lack of knowledge.

Why are some countries still in need of aid? Because despite decades of cash they still can't sort themselves out because of civil and religious war, because the leader is feeding cash straight into his treasury, or maybe buying himself a new private jet. We've been digging wells in Africa since Victorian times and yet we're still seeing adverts about how kids are having to drink water than animals have pissed in.

While we have people sleeping on our streets and dying because they have to choose between turning on the heat and eating, then no money should go abroad. If people want to donate personally, knock yourself out.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Hahah, this isnt a guilt trip, this is a fact. And its grim if youre comfortable with it, a lot appear to be more than comfortable - practically promoting it. Grim.

We do already give priority to our own. Weird thing to say. What you really want to say is that its time to give everything to our own? Grim.

Priority to our own? Go tell that to the people living on the streets of London in the cold weather.