[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well can I ask what is then Niamh, in your opinion?

In my opinion, most of the SDs section is incapable of debating a topic without insulting other posters, ganging up on people with their buddies before they even do anything wrong yet they refuse to recognise the fact that they themselves and their friends do exactly the same sort of things. I think all sides are guilty (not all posters but certainly people from eachside because all of a sudden there does seem to be an Us against them sort of a scenario playing out) And I think that nobody is willing to take a look at themselves and say, I may be contributing to this, they will just happily blame "the otherside" so until people can try to make some changes themselves then i can't see how things are ever going to change because at the end of the day we can only change our own behaviour not anyone elses.

It's a shame but SDs is not a nice place to be right now and it's a complete nightmare to try to moderate

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In my opinion, most of the SDs section is incapable of debating a topic without insulting other posters, ganging up on people with their buddies before they even do anything wrong yet they refuse to recognise the fact that they themselves and their friends do exactly the same sort of things. I think all sides are guilty (not all posters but certainly people from eachside because all of a sudden there does seem to be an Us against them sort of a scenario playing out) And I think that nobody is willing to take a look at themselves and say, I may be contributing to this, they will just happily blame "the otherside" so until people can try to make some changes themselves then i can't see how things are ever going to change because at the end of the day we can only change our own behaviour not anyone elses.

It's a shame but SDs is not a nice place to be right now and it's a complete nightmare to try to moderate

Thank you for responding Niamh.

I agree with the overall sentiment of your post but I have my own opinion of just who are the main culprits, but although I am entitled to that opinion, I cannot publish it because of the Forum rules (and I would not anyway) but you can be assured that if I did, my opinion would split the forum in half at least.

And that is the nature of the beast - disagreeing with OPINION on a Debate Forum, but I still maintain, that it is when FACTS are denied and dismissed out of hand because those facts completely disprove an opinion and there is NO argument to them, that name calling begins and trouble starts.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank you for responding Niamh.

I agree with the overall sentiment of your post but I have my own opinion of just who are the main culprits, but although I am entitled to that opinion, I cannot publish it because of the Forum rules (and I would not anyway) but you can be assured that if I did, my opinion would split the forum in half at least.

And that is the nature of the beast - disagreeing with OPINION on a Debate Forum, but I still maintain, that it is when FACTS are denied and dismissed out of hand because those facts completely disprove an opinion and there is NO argument to them, that name calling begins and trouble starts.

No worries Kirk.

Look I'm sure you do and I'm sure I can probably guess who, in your opinion are the main culprits, I could also guess that all these culprits are on the "otherside"

My only advice which will no doubt be ignored is to ignore posts that you think have crossed the line from debating the topic to insulting a poster and report it, there needs to be atleast two people involved to have an argument

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No worries Kirk.

Look I'm sure you do and I'm sure I can probably guess who, in your opinion are the main culprits, I could also guess that all these culprits are on the "otherside"

My only advice which will no doubt be ignored is to ignore posts that you think have crossed the line from debating the topic to insulting a poster and report it, there needs to be at least two people involved to have an argument

Thank you Niamh. You ARE right of course.

I am not bum-licking, but I have always found you to be fair and friendly, so I REALLY do respect your opinion.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

IMO the major problem (and the one that leads to all of what you're saying here) is that there are very few people here who actually want any sort of academic discussion; i.e. a back and forth of "maybes" to lead to some sort of conclusion. Everybody starts with their conclusions already set in concrete, a whole bundle of suppositions, prejudices, and confirmation biases (confirmation bias makes up something like 75% of new thread topics in the first place; this one being a stellar example.)

These things are posted repeatedly simply for the "fun" of bashing the bricks together until one breaks or they both crumble.

In short: There are no debates nor discussions. And yes it is quite depressing, and boring.

There is a serious lack of "middleground" I think, it's either 100% one way or 100% the other

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank you Niamh. You ARE right of course.

I am not bum-licking, but I have always found you to be fair and friendly, so I REALLY do respect your opinion.

Thanks Kirk. Look SDs has always gone through periods like this, i guess it's inevitable when peoples personalities clash and we get close to some people and very eh.....unclose to others The current Political climate around the world is very divisive at the moment too and it seems to be if you're not on my side you're against me and all I stand for sort of thing? Me personally i feel like I'm somewhere in the middle with it all

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In my opinion, most of the SDs section is incapable of debating a topic without insulting other posters, ganging up on people with their buddies before they even do anything wrong yet they refuse to recognise the fact that they themselves and their friends do exactly the same sort of things. I think all sides are guilty (not all posters but certainly people from eachside because all of a sudden there does seem to be an Us against them sort of a scenario playing out) And I think that nobody is willing to take a look at themselves and say, I may be contributing to this, they will just happily blame "the otherside" so until people can try to make some changes themselves then i can't see how things are ever going to change because at the end of the day we can only change our own behaviour not anyone elses.

It's a shame but SDs is not a nice place to be right now and it's a complete nightmare to try to moderate

.....yeah I pretty much agree in that there is so little responsibility taken for the self-participation in these things and how they often progress the way they do.../we can never control what other people do or say...all we can do is to look at ourselves and our own part and 'who said what first' becomes irrelevant and will only ever result in the same old, same old and the same old spoiling of any debate or discussion...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....yeah I pretty much agree in that there is so little responsibility taken for the self-participation in these things and how they often progress the way they do.../we can never control what other people do or say...all we can do is to look at ourselves and our own part and 'who said what first' becomes irrelevant and will only ever result in the same old, same old and the same old spoiling of any debate or discussion...

So the answer is:

a) Do not post any facts which disprove - often irrational, erroneous, and BIGOTED views.

b) Do not submit any posts which COUNTER certain members views - no matter how civilly such counter responses may be?

c) Let us all agree with the prevailing Liberal Left opinions on here - no matter how misguided, banal and ill informed they may be.

In short then Ammi - let all of us who have dissenting voices STOP posting on Serious Debates and leave all those who are like-minded upon here to it?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So the answer is:

a) Do not post any facts which disprove - often irrational, erroneous, and BIGOTED views.

b) Do not submit any posts which COUNTER certain members views - no matter how civilly such counter responses may be?

c) Let us all agree with the prevailing Liberal Left opinions on here - no matter how misguided, banal and ill informed they may be.

In short then Ammi - let all of us who have dissenting voices STOP posting on Serious Debates and leave all those who are like-minded upon here to it?

..now then Kirk, my post didn't say anything you have said, that is your own interpretation and your own responsibility for that interpretation so that's absolutely fine also...it does go a little way though to show the vein of posts/the vein of replies etc in some compared to others of a personal agenda because basically agreeing with what Niamh said, I have a very different vein of response ...interesting...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In my opinion, most of the SDs section is incapable of debating a topic without insulting other posters, ganging up on people with their buddies before they even do anything wrong yet they refuse to recognise the fact that they themselves and their friends do exactly the same sort of things. I think all sides are guilty (not all posters but certainly people from eachside because all of a sudden there does seem to be an Us against them sort of a scenario playing out) And I think that nobody is willing to take a look at themselves and say, I may be contributing to this, they will just happily blame "the otherside" so until people can try to make some changes themselves then i can't see how things are ever going to change because at the end of the day we can only change our own behaviour not anyone elses.

It's a shame but SDs is not a nice place to be right now and it's a complete nightmare to try to moderate

IMO the major problem (and the one that leads to all of what you're saying here) is that there are very few people here who actually want any sort of academic discussion; i.e. a back and forth of "maybes" to lead to some sort of conclusion. Everybody starts with their conclusions already set in concrete, a whole bundle of suppositions, prejudices, and confirmation biases (confirmation bias makes up something like 75% of new thread topics in the first place; this one being a stellar example.)

These things are posted repeatedly simply for the "fun" of bashing the bricks together until one breaks or they both crumble.

In short: There are no debates nor discussions. And yes it is quite depressing, and boring.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

IMO the major problem (and the one that leads to all of what you're saying here) is that there are very few people here who actually want any sort of academic discussion; i.e. a back and forth of "maybes" to lead to some sort of conclusion. Everybody starts with their conclusions already set in concrete, a whole bundle of suppositions, prejudices, and confirmation biases (confirmation bias makes up something like 75% of new thread topics in the first place; this one being a stellar example.)

These things are posted repeatedly simply for the "fun" of bashing the bricks together until one breaks or they both crumble.

In short: There are no debates nor discussions. And yes it is quite depressing, and boring.

..I can recall back in the day..../how many discussions I found to actually make me think and readdress how I'd previously felt about something with my narrow personal experience..but yeah, ears as well as voices is the only communication that makes for any type of discussion which we can all benefit from and find interesting...

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I can recall back in the day..../how many discussions I found to actually make me think and readdress how I'd previously felt about something with my narrow personal experience..but yeah, ears as well as voices is the only communication that makes for any type of discussion which we can all benefit from and find interesting...

Definitely, people should always be open to having their minds changed when they get into a debate or discussion. I always remember something Claudia said one time, that she changes her mind too easily in SDs and I was saying to her, that's a really good quality though and rare enough, it means you are really listening to people openly.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Definitely, people should always be open to having their minds changed when they get into a debate or discussion. I always remember something Claudia said one time, that she changes her mind too easily in SDs and I was saying to her, that's a really good quality though and rare enough, it means you are really listening to people openly.

..yeah, it's always been the same for me as well...I sometimes like to think about my stance a bit first because it might have been something that I had given very little thought to before and felt particular passion for but it's listening to differing and opposing opinions that help with your own thoughts as well and considering all sides etc...those for me are the types of conversations/discussions/debates etc I would have in real life also...the ones where you're exhausted by them but in a great way.../having stimulated your thoughts and head.....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

IMO the major problem (and the one that leads to all of what you're saying here) is that there are very few people here who actually want any sort of academic discussion; i.e. a back and forth of "maybes" to lead to some sort of conclusion. Everybody starts with their conclusions already set in concrete, a whole bundle of suppositions, prejudices, and confirmation biases (confirmation bias makes up something like 75% of new thread topics in the first place; this one being a stellar example.)

These things are posted repeatedly simply for the "fun" of bashing the bricks together until one breaks or they both crumble.

In short: There are no debates nor discussions. And yes it is quite depressing, and boring.

If a currently valid topic is posted but there is NO ensuing Debate or Discussion - then THAT is the fault of the members and NOT the topic subject posted.

But THAT is NOT how this is thread has played out and it is NO 'Stellar Example'.

There have been 33 posts ensuing from this Topic being posted, a lot of them intelligent and serious, and some light relief as well, BEFORE the "I'm Quitting" post by Kizzy - since which there have been a further 32 posts - how is that indicative of 'No Debate' or 'Discussion'?

There are PLENTY of members who DO want 'Academic Discussion' - THAT is beyond question.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If a currently valid topic is posted but there is NO ensuing Debate or Discussion - then THAT is the fault of the members and NOT the topic subject posted.

But THAT is NOT how this is thread has played out and it is NO 'Stellar Example'.

There have been 33 posts ensuing from this Topic being posted, a lot of them intelligent and serious, and some light relief as well, BEFORE the "I'm Quitting" post by Kizzy - since which there have been a further 32 posts - how is that indicative of 'No Debate' or 'Discussion'?

There are PLENTY of members who DO want 'Academic Discussion' - THAT is beyond question.

The title is misleading and deliberately inflammatory and (from the content of the first post) it's obvious that the thread was posted because you read it and it confirmed your already-held beliefs about the situation... that is confirmation bias. The accuracy of the reporting doesn't actually matter as much as the reason for posting it. That's what I mean by the majority of the threads being posted in that mode; "I've been telling you this for ages and here is some more evidence of what I was already saying!". There are a tonne of these threads. As for the discussion that follows? Nothing new to see. Same people reiterating the same opinions they've had on every other thread with a vaguely similar topic (there are dozens). Not one vague attempt at altering or expanding opinions based on the discussion. There is no debate.

Or rather, the threads operate more like political Trump vs Clinton, Labour vs Tory, "debates" rather than academic debates - i.e. people seem to believe that the point of the debate is simply to present their own argument, which they believe 100% and unshakably, in such a way that "the audience" will be swayed by their immense proof and skillful oratory. Except that there is no audience, and as such, it's a complete waste of time. Anyone who is on here "debating" who feels that they have no capacity for altering their opinion in any way is wasting their time, and that currently - quite simply - applies to the majority of threads.

It DOES make me sad because I honestly don't think it has always been so static and stale. Even to use us an example; in our early days there were CONSTANT arguments that would stem from simply misunderstanding each other completely, something that I don't think has happened for a long time. There used to be plenty of compromise and thoughtfulness alongside the bickering name-calling... those things are not the problem. It's how self-assured everyone has become, and how quickly threads descend into back-patting and circlejerking.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The title is misleading and deliberately inflammatory and (from the content of the first post) it's obvious that the thread was posted because you read it and it confirmed your already-held beliefs about the situation... that is confirmation bias. The accuracy of the reporting doesn't actually matter as much as the reason for posting it. That's what I mean by the majority of the threads being posted in that mode; "I've been telling you this for ages and here is some more evidence of what I was already saying!". There are a tonne of these threads. As for the discussion that follows? Nothing new to see. Same people reiterating the same opinions they've had on every other thread with a vaguely similar topic (there are dozens). Not one vague attempt at altering or expanding opinions based on the discussion. There is no debate.

Or rather, the threads operate more like political Trump vs Clinton, Labour vs Tory, "debates" rather than academic debates - i.e. people seem to believe that the point of the debate is simply to present their own argument, which they believe 100% and unshakably, in such a way that "the audience" will be swayed by their immense proof and skillful oratory. Except that there is no audience, and as such, it's a complete waste of time. Anyone who is on here "debating" who feels that they have no capacity for altering their opinion in any way is wasting their time, and that currently - quite simply - applies to the majority of threads.

It DOES make me sad because I honestly don't think it has always been so static and stale. Even to use us an example; in our early days there were CONSTANT arguments that would stem from simply misunderstanding each other completely, something that I don't think has happened for a long time. There used to be plenty of compromise and thoughtfulness alongside the bickering name-calling... those things are not the problem. It's how self-assured everyone has become, and how quickly threads descend into back-patting and circlejerking.

Back patting and circle jerking not seen too much on this thread

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The title is misleading and deliberately inflammatory and (from the content of the first post) it's obvious that the thread was posted because you read it and it confirmed your already-held beliefs about the situation... that is confirmation bias. The accuracy of the reporting doesn't actually matter as much as the reason for posting it. That's what I mean by the majority of the threads being posted in that mode; "I've been telling you this for ages and here is some more evidence of what I was already saying!". There are a tonne of these threads. As for the discussion that follows? Nothing new to see. Same people reiterating the same opinions they've had on every other thread with a vaguely similar topic (there are dozens). Not one vague attempt at altering or expanding opinions based on the discussion. There is no debate.

Or rather, the threads operate more like political Trump vs Clinton, Labour vs Tory, "debates" rather than academic debates - i.e. people seem to believe that the point of the debate is simply to present their own argument, which they believe 100% and unshakably, in such a way that "the audience" will be swayed by their immense proof and skillful oratory. Except that there is no audience, and as such, it's a complete waste of time. Anyone who is on here "debating" who feels that they have no capacity for altering their opinion in any way is wasting their time, and that currently - quite simply - applies to the majority of threads.

It DOES make me sad because I honestly don't think it has always been so static and stale. Even to use us an example; in our early days there were CONSTANT arguments that would stem from simply misunderstanding each other completely, something that I don't think has happened for a long time. There used to be plenty of compromise and thoughtfulness alongside the bickering name-calling... those things are not the problem. It's how self-assured everyone has become, and how quickly threads descend into back-patting and circlejerking.

This is IT in a nutshell, IMO.
I used to love reading in here although I just don't have the inclination to post very often so maybe my opinion won't be welcome, but.... now it's often 'here's another incident that proves my opinion is the correct one'. Is there really any point wanting a 'debate' about 2 bad eggs in an immigrant camp carrying out some criminal activity? All those similar stories have been 'debated' with nothing new being said...and anyone could search the news and find stories of bad eggs carrying out criminal activity who are not immigrants in immigrant camps....lets have all those stories....

Is it really surprising or 'debate worthy' anyway when people thrown together in a camp, far from home, with growing tensions and uncertainty a way of life for them commit more crime than is normal than they would if living in a settled and familiar society?

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by jet

This is IT in a nutshell, IMO.
I used to love reading in here although I just don't have the inclination to post very often so maybe my opinion won't be welcome, but.... now it's often 'here's another incident that proves my opinion is the correct one'. Is there really any point wanting a 'debate' about 2 bad eggs in an immigrant camp carrying out some criminal activity? All those similar stories have been 'debated' with nothing new being said...and anyone could search the news and find stories of bad eggs carrying out criminal activity who are not immigrants in immigrant camps....lets have all those stories....

Is it really surprising or newsworthy anyway when people thrown together in a camp, far from home, with growing tensions and uncertainty a way of life for them commit more crime than is normal than they would if living in a settled and familiar society?

I hope you decide to start posting more again Jet, i think we all need to try and make an effort to start other threads in Serious debates besides these type of ones, they always end up with same arguments going round in circles

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I hope you decide to start posting more again Jet, i think we all need to try and make an effort to start other threads in Serious debates besides these type of ones, they always end up with same arguments going round in circles

That's a good start, maybe we could see a few people actually starting threads instead of complaining about what others choose to post about.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I hope you decide to start posting more again Jet, i think we all need to try and make an effort to start other threads in Serious debates besides these type of ones, they always end up with same arguments going round in circles

Thanks Niamh. I just like to read here really and miss the fantastic debates - this used to be my first port of call when an interesting news story came up to read what you all had to say, and I liked how you can get to 'know' the posters from their posting styles and opinions....
Many a time I've thought....I wonder what Niamh, or Joey, or Ammi, or Kirk etc have to say about that...logging in to TIBB

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In my opinion, most of the SDs section is incapable of debating a topic without insulting other posters, ganging up on people with their buddies before they even do anything wrong yet they refuse to recognise the fact that they themselves and their friends do exactly the same sort of things. I think all sides are guilty (not all posters but certainly people from eachside because all of a sudden there does seem to be an Us against them sort of a scenario playing out) And I think that nobody is willing to take a look at themselves and say, I may be contributing to this, they will just happily blame "the otherside" so until people can try to make some changes themselves then i can't see how things are ever going to change because at the end of the day we can only change our own behaviour not anyone elses.

It's a shame but SDs is not a nice place to be right now and it's a complete nightmare to try to moderate

x 1000

A lot of these pettier arguments can stop by simply not being reciprocal to baiting attacks. The ignore list is there for a reason if you find these posts triggering. I personally don't have the emotional collateral available to get involved in all the personal attacks lobbied in this section... so usually I wait until about page 4-5 when everyone has wore themselves down some to contribute ... also if people are leaving threads with these anxious thoughts constantly in their mind, about who is talking about who, who is writing about who, when the next attack will be... then that is a very good sign that one's focus on these matters has become unhealthy... and the ignore function is a good course of action if particular personality traits, verbiage or use of incendiary is a trigger for you.

I speak from vast experience on this topic.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I hope you decide to start posting more again Jet, i think we all need to try and make an effort to start other threads in Serious debates besides these type of ones, they always end up with same arguments going round in circles

Niamh, I have tried this... it's hard to get any real conversation going when SD appears limited to the same few people whose metal are better tested in other topics. The rest of the forum doesn't appear to be the longform poster type (though I still think they should participate as diverse views== better discussion imo) I'm also at a disadvantage because I'm out of country... so can't really bring any sort of local perspective to the table. My topics are limited to US affairs... often our politics that gets the most attention. Sad to say.


As far as debating... this section might be overly due then for a rename to serious discussions or something, because debate is a highly competitive verb... it's first priority is not to be a mutual discussion and having an open mind , though we should strive for it... it's literally about constructing the best arguments/rebuttals in arguments... at least that's how I sometimes treat it... because the word debate, implies a competitive theme. Which is a bit out of place compared to the rest of the forum which is more relaxed... actually.

Debate

noun
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints:
a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3. deliberation; consideration.
4. Archaic. strife; contention. (Is this really archaic? )

Moreover, most arguments in the controversial topics are doomed to stalemate from the beginning because they based on emotional/moral grounds... that is, they are heavily influenced by one's personal or moral background, not something that can be torn apart in logic... something you can't separate from the personal either, so often leads to mutual bickering which leads to personal attacks and a stalemate, because convincing someone their moral barometer is broken is a lot harder (read: impossible) than just simply debating something matter of factly and having a discussion there... it's also easy to have an upper hand in the morality dept (superficially speaking) but often means those points go on forever and ever... and never leaves room for another interpretation or other POVs to be heard... some have not been willing to leave those moral arguments to a previous thread... they feel they need to make it a point thread to thread. I won't name names because I feel like we're all a little guilty of this.