[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well one of the issues that feminists generally shy away from is the fact that way more men die at work because they do the horrible jobs that women won't or can't do.Put that fact to a feminist and they'll change the subject or try telling you it's all about the context etc etc blah blah.

You do know a significant amount of women die in childbirth, and many thousands over the years.

And male/female roles came from tradition in a male dominated society. Men made those decisions. Over the years women have challenged these roles with more women than ever doing tradionally male jobs.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

your counter argument is embarrassing and your false outrage and fake taking of offence oh so predictable. If 2 people do the exact same job to the same standard in the same part of the country they should be paid the same. otherwise there will be variation. how many women clean the sewers, work oil rigs, carry out the rubbish, how many do the most dangerous jobs risking life and limb compared to men? until the same number do, then they cannot earn the living for doing these jobs? You cont even understand mean medium mode. Im talking the mean across the whole country. when you factor in the vast number of men who do more risky jobs and get danger money they they overall male mean/average will be boosted above womens.

I really doubt any of those things would affect the wage gap, given they will be fairly low paid? If anything, they would bring down the average earnings of males against females?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nothing you say is based on logic or facts but it all comes from the deep seated need to feel oppressed. You are not oppressed for being a straight white man, you have never been oppressed in your life and you never will. Nothing you say will change that.

Nice try to avoid the FACTS which you cannot possibly argue with lol Nothing you just typed made any sense , it was embarassing and og so predictable and transparent. You 100% ignored exactly what I was saying deliberately. A typically disingenuous feminist reply You have lost this argument very badly

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I really doubt any of those things would affect the wage gap, given they will be fairly low paid? If anything, they would bring down the average earnings of males and females?

That is simply untrue, they ALL affect the wage gap. Its time those pretending to care about equal opportunities focused not on the totally fake oppression of women in western society, which simply doesnt exist. But on the oppression and discrimination and wage gap on the disabled, the sick and elderly. These groups should be furiour with the selfish man hating feminists who keep stealing the attention and public money to serve their selfish desires. when the attention and money belongs with these truly oppressed discriminated against groups in western society

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but find the idea that feminists should centre the struggles of men slightly bizarre. Its kinda akin to asking the black lives matter movement to focus on the struggles of white people.

And I am yet to meet a feminist who hates men, as is often claimed.

I actually agree that in this country men and women are more or less equal. But to claim that men are more oppressed is just silly to me.

No offence Vicki but I find it very frustrating when women say they are not a feminist. If you believe in female equality then you are a feminist as that is all feminism means - believing in equality. You sound like a woman who believes in equality to me.

[Vicky.]

Also if anyone thinks its as easy for a female to get a promotion as it is for a male..you are kidding yourself. In my fairly short lifetime I have been passed over for promotions twice based on the fact that I would not suck off/**** the male boss in order to gain said promotion. Both times, the job went to a male who was worse at the job than me.

Of course, you could argue that the male was actually better (even though they clearly weren't, but for the sake of argument) but then you have to ask yourself, why was I offered it above the more capable male, on the condition that I basically prostituted myself?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No offence Vicki but I find it very frustrating when women say they are not a feminist. If you believe in female equality then you are a feminist as that is all feminism means - believing in equality. You sound like a woman who believes in equality to me.

I meant more along the lines of...I don't march. I don't fight. I do nothing. I believe in equality yes.

Maybe I am not a feminist activist would have been more appropriate.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No offence Vicki but I find it very frustrating when women say they are not a feminist. If you believe in female equality then you are a feminist as that is all feminism means - believing in equality. You sound like a woman who believes in equality to me.

I agree but unfortunately feminist has becomes a dirty word and seems to have warped into a different meaning altogether

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

That is simply untrue, they ALL affect the wage gap. Its time those pretending to care about equal opportunities focused not on the totally fake oppression of women in western society, which simply doesnt exist. But on the oppression and discrimination and wage gap on the disabled, the sick and elderly. These groups should be furiour with the selfish man hating feminists who keep stealing the attention and public money to serve their selfish desires. when the attention and money belongs with these truly oppressed discriminated against groups in western society

As I understand it, lower paid manual labour jobs which fall under the general average...would drag down the average wages of males? Unless the average is not worked out in the way averages usually are I guess.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's a stupid argument to make. Why should a woman be paid less than a man just because some industries are male dominated? It makes no ****ing sense.

Does this mean that men working in the fashion, childcare or Health & Beauty industries should be paid less than women because they are female dominated industries? It's dumb.

Men and women who perform the same job should be paid an equal wage, the fact that people are arguing against this is just ****ing mind boggling.

Who's arguing against that?Wage should reflect the job role.If one gender happens to go into lesser paid roles more than the other then that's not the fault of the opposite gender.There may be a case for childcare roles to increase wages but that needs to be taken up with that industry.

Women in their twenties are out earning men.When they get into their thirties when many decide to have children then that tends to be where the gap is.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I agree but unfortunately feminist has becomes a dirty word and seems to have warped into a different meaning altogether

I know and that is a shame. Women need to be stronger - loud and proud. It doesn't mean they are men haters or lesbians so they should not allow others to make them feel embarrassed to say they are a feminist.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Who's arguing against that?Wage should reflect the job role.If one gender happens to go into lesser paid roles more than the other then that's not the fault of the opposite gender.There may be a case for childcare roles to increase wages but that needs to be taken up with that industry.

Women in their twenties are out earning men.When they get into their thirties when many decide to have children then that tends to be where the gap is.

Whats being claimed on this thread is that males do the lesser paid jobs that noone wants to do...and this is the reason why men earn more than women?

I do agree that childcare is a huge reason for the gender paygap though. Its more...'traditional' for women to stay home with the kids whilst the man works. Or for the woman to go part time.

Another fairly obvious reason though is...age 30+ you are more likely to be getting promotions and rising to the top of the career ladder. It IS harder for females to do this, even without kids to 'hold them back'.

[Northern Monkey]

If feminism was about equality it wouldn't be called 'feminism'.It would be a broader term to encourage equality for everyone.
Real feminism played an important role back when women were truly oppressed but now both sexes are equally oppressed the term is outdated.
Modern feminists in the main don't want equality.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Whats being claimed on this thread is that males do the lesser paid jobs that noone wants to do...and this is the reason why men earn more than women?

I do agree that childcare is a huge reason for the gender paygap though. Its more...'traditional' for women to stay home with the kids whilst the man works. Or for the woman to go part time.

Another fairly obvious reason though is...age 30+ you are more likely to be getting promotions and rising to the top of the career ladder. It IS harder for females to do this, even without kids to 'hold them back'.

No that's not the reason they earn more than women in a lifetime.That's conflating two different issues but when women are doing dangerous and manual jobs in the same numbers as men and getting paid equally over a lifetime then their will be true equality....

However if we accept that men and women are different and there are some roles suited more for a particular gender then that probably is part of the reason for the pay gap.Maybe some female oriented roles do need a wage increase.However i would'nt class the beauty industry etc as those.

Most women have kids and i would say that has a huge impact on the pay gap in higher paid jobs.Specially those involving commision.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

No that's not the reason they earn more than women in a lifetime.That's conflating two different issues but when women are doing dangerous and manual jobs in the same numbers as men and getting paid equally over a lifetime then their will be true equality....

However if we accept that men and women are different and there are some roles suited more for a particular gender then that probably is part of the reason for the pay gap.Maybe some female oriented roles do need a wage increase.However i would'nt class the beauty industry etc as those.

Most women have kids and i would say that has a huge impact on the pay gap in higher paid jobs.Specially those involving commision.

As do most men tbh.

I agree with the rest of your post. I go against 'acceptable' opinions on the male/female jobs thing too. I DO think that men are better suited to some jobs based purely on biology. Ie. Jobs that require a lot of strength are (IMO) better suited to males as males are generally much stronger than females. Of course there are exceptions, but as a group, men are stronger than women...and theres nothing wrong with accepting this. It almost seems to be an unacceptable opinion that men (for example) make better police officers, firefighters and such than women. As a whole, not on an individual basis. And thats just silly. there are huge differences between the sexes. Both in how we are built and what hormones do for us...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

As do most men tbh.

I agree with the rest of your post. I go against 'acceptable' opinions on the male/female jobs thing too. I DO think that men are better suited to some jobs based purely on biology. Ie. Jobs that require a lot of strength are (IMO) better suited to males as males are generally much stronger than females. Of course there are exceptions, but as a group, men are stronger than women...and theres nothing wrong with accepting this. It almost seems to be an unacceptable opinion that men (for example) make better police officers, firefighters and such than women. As a whole, not on an individual basis. And thats just silly. there are huge differences between the sexes. Both in how we are built and what hormones do for us...

But men don't get to choose either.They can't have the high flying job and take a year off to look after the newborn.I've been in jobs where men get two weeks paternity leave paid and can choose to take another four unpaid but it is frowned upon.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But men don't get to choose either.They can't have the high flying job and take a year off to look after the newborn.I've been in jobs where men get two weeks paternity leave paid and can choose to take another four unpaid but it is frowned upon.

I'm not understanding this? men have the option as women do to give up work or go part-time upon having a child?

The paternity leave thing is a ****ing disgrace. I actually thought that had been changed now so that either than mother or the father could take the parental leave?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

As I understand it, lower paid manual labour jobs which fall under the general average...would drag down the average wages of males? Unless the average is not worked out in the way averages usually are I guess.

yeah oil riggers are way underpaid lol

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

yeah oil riggers are way underpaid lol

The rest of the jobs you listed are..

On the subject of oil riggers actually...is it normal to do a kind of 1 week on 3 week off arrangement? Theres a group of men in the bar I used to work who did that job and were only away part of the month but seemed to be absolutely LOADED.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

As do most men tbh.

I agree with the rest of your post. I go against 'acceptable' opinions on the male/female jobs thing too. I DO think that men are better suited to some jobs based purely on biology. Ie. Jobs that require a lot of strength are (IMO) better suited to males as males are generally much stronger than females. Of course there are exceptions, but as a group, men are stronger than women...and theres nothing wrong with accepting this. It almost seems to be an unacceptable opinion that men (for example) make better police officers, firefighters and such than women. As a whole, not on an individual basis. And thats just silly. there are huge differences between the sexes. Both in how we are built and what hormones do for us...

dont forget those women who do choose to have kids and take a few years out of their career also get a hell of a lot of benefits, child benefits, housing benefits, income support, plus they get to keep the family home , the men are kicked out if the couple split, in which case the women get a sizeable income from the ex husbands too....all of that should be factored in when adding up men and womens total incomes

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I'm not understanding this? men have the option as women do to give up work or go part-time upon having a child?

The paternity leave thing is a ****ing disgrace. I actually thought that had been changed now so that either than mother or the father could take the parental leave?

Well if women are mainly spending less time in work due to maternity then they take a pay cut for part of that time plus miss opportunities for promotion etc due to less time in work plus in commission based jobs they're missing out on alot of money.According to the statistics of what age this pay gap begins it is generally when women become mothers so it's undoubtedly having an effect.Men are'nt taking that time off work.Motherhood seems to effect womens careers in high paid jobs.If men were taking that time off in equal numbers then this gap would close massively.
Also don't forget that many women choose to become stay at home mums for 10,15,16 years.That is a massive loss of earnings.There's nothing wrong with that btw but women or men can't have everything.It's impossible for either sex to be a stay at home parent and have a lifelong career.

Not sure on paternity pay these days.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well if women are mainly spending less time in work due to maternity then they take a pay cut for part of that time plus miss opportunities for promotion etc due to less time in work plus in commission based jobs they're missing out on alot of money.According to the statistics of what age this pay gap begins it is generally when women become mothers so it's undoubtedly having an effect.Men are'nt taking that time off work.Motherhood seems to effect womens careers in high paid jobs.If men were taking that time off in equal numbers then this gap would close massively.
Also don't forget that many women choose to become stay at home mums for 10,15,16 years.That is a massive loss of earnings.There's nothing wrong with that btw but women or men can't have everything.It's impossible for either sex to be a stay at home parent and have a lifelong career.

Not sure on paternity pay these days.

Yeah, men aren't taking time off work for the kids, this much is obvious. Infact its a large (arguably the main) reason FOR the pay gap in the first place. And part of the reason I do not really feel the paygap is as big of a problem as its made out to be. Smaller reasons are at -play..it IS harder for a woman to rise to the top of her career...but I cannot see this affecting the pay gap as much as parenthood.

Also truth...you make out men are so hard done by on the subject of kids/divorces. Yet if we accept that men (typically) chose to keep working while the woman leaves work when they BOTH decide to have kids, does it not make sense for the main carer who gave up their own career (in most cases the mother) gets the house and such? When men are the stay at home parents, in the event of a divorce the man will get the house and maintenance too, its down to custody not sex...Also as far as I am aware, money paid is for the kids not the parent. In America I believe this is different, but not here.

[Vicky.]

Also in the event of a couple having kids, the man keeping working and the woman staying home...it is extremely unlikely that anyone gets 'a hell of a lot of benefits'. But for the sake of argument...Child benefit is for the family and not everyone gets this. Housing benefit would benefit the man also, but is unlikely in the case of the man working fulltime and getting a half decent wage. Income support...not likely at all if the man is working fulltime.

[Withano]

Christ, good thing the march happened. I had no idea people had the views some members are expressing. Looks like theres still a long way to go. But opening a discussion with some of the deep-rooted mindsets above is progress.

I think discrimination is just difficult to undrstand when you have never experienced it. Straight cisgendered white able-bodied males will be difficult to convince unless they have an enducation or the time to research inequality independently. We just got to wait for that day, theres not much point debating an unchangeable mindset.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Christ, good thing the march happened. I had no idea people had the views some members are expressing. Looks like theres still a long way to go. But opening a discussion with some of the deep-rooted mindsets above is progress.

I think discrimination is just difficult to undrstand when you have never experienced it. Straight cisgendered white able-bodied males will be difficult to convince unless they have an enducation or the time to research inequality independently. We just got to wait for that day, theres not much point debating an unchangeable mindset.

The most discriminated against group of all..evidently.