[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

On the 2nd of January this year was a day of global solidarity for the Muslim headscarf. The message was, "I have the freedom to wear what I want"

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

On the 2nd of January this year was a day of global solidarity for the Muslim headscarf. The message was, "I have the freedom to wear what I want"

Why would any woman want to wear a garment that represents female subjugation? That is not how most Western women today want Western women or men to think. I think that the fact that so many Muslim women still do speaks volumes and is not a way of thinking that should be encouraged in the West.

What about integration and mutual respect? It is disrespectful to Western women who believe in gender equality. Why should a minority's freedoms override those of the majority?

I find the whole thing extremely manipulative.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You were being selective because he also quite clearly stated that he believes it is everyone's right to wear whatever they want - which you conveniently chose to ignore to fit your own, paranoid, version of the story.

He did which is very contradictory when supporting the choice to wear garments that attempt to undermine female equality. It is clearly at odds with the majority view in the West.

No thought to the message that would give and the long-term impact that could have on female equality has been given. Who knows maybe he is just sexist underneath all that rhetoric.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

Muslim women and Orthodox Christian women are brought up differently to us. They are taught from an early age that a woman will only be respected by god if she shows modesty and a Muslim woman's hair is seen by those who are practising Muslims as the most sensual thing she posses.

You could compare that with the way we see a woman's breasts in the West. If we went over to Africa and mixed with tribal women who went about their work topless, would we feel comfortable doing the same? I probably wouldn't because it would make me feel vulnerable.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

No doubt that is one reason. The other is indoctrination. The percentage of women doing so due to 'freedom of choice' is questionable.

As we have witnessed very recently some Muslim women also hold extremist views and the tiny minority who do actually 'choose' to should not have their 'rights' superseed the equality laws of the country they choose to live in.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Why would any woman want to wear a garment that represents female subjugation? That is not how most Western women today want Western women or men to think. I think that the fact that so many Muslim women still do speaks volumes and is not a way of thinking that should be encouraged in the West.

What about integration and mutual respect? It is disrespectful to Western women who believe in gender equality. Why should a minority's freedoms override those of the majority?

I find the whole thing extremely manipulative.

Stop it with the subjugation. Of course some family members insist on their women folks covering but the majority of these women just consider themselves true to their faith. Its no different to a Sikh being brought up never to cut his hair and wear a turban when out or Orthodox Christians, Catholic nuns or Orthodox men wearing their religious garb. Are Orthodox Jewish boys subjugated because they wear head covering. Are married Orthodox Jewish women subjugated because under the eyes of God they should cover their hair when out (normally a wig). You can't say Muslim women are subjugated without putting all these people in the same category.

Edited to add. Its the same for indoctrination.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The other is indoctrination.

But that's true of all religious activity, across all religions. It's certainly not a "Muslim issue" so it grates on me when people want to pick and choose like that.

I personally would like to see ALL religion go the way of the dodo. Or the dragon, perhaps, as dodos did actually exist once. But that's not really relevant when it comes to discussing specific indoctrinations and belief systems. If you are against indoctrination, you should be equally opposed to all organised religions.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Wow!

I'll tell my Muslim work colleagues they need to step up their game and go and get themselves a reality check.

I think as a former muslim and living in a society where it is getting ruined day by day because we gave tolerated these people too much i know a lot more how majority of the muslims think than you. You can be sarcastic all you want but there is a great danger waiting for all societies and there are great societies have been ruined by radical islam.

Nobody is saying all muslims are included in this criteria but a message needs to be given out that some people need to get out of their deluded bubbles that their beliefs and life styles are not the only thing in this world.

There are actually gay people getting tortured in russia, they are stealing our hard earned 100 year old rights in turkey and has anyone did or even say something about this? No because everybody is self centered only care about what is in front of them. But everyone gets riled about something small happens like comment sections in daily mail or a woman wearing burka while doing a sport.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Muslim women and Orthodox Christian women are brought up differently to us. They are taught from an early age that a woman will only be respected by god if she shows modesty and a Muslim woman's hair is seen by those who are practising Muslims as the most sensual thing she posses.

You could compare that with the way we see a woman's breasts in the West. If we went over to Africa and mixed with tribal women who went about their work topless, would we feel comfortable doing the same? I probably wouldn't because it would make me feel vulnerable.

The ladies I work with are English, none of them wore a headscarf before they were married, they only did so to please their husbands they openly speak about it in the staff room, while the older Muslim ladies don't wear any so there are varying reasons why women wear headscarfs some to so for faith, some do so to please their partners, some because they live with strict parents/in laws some do it out of choice, some don't, I do believe women should have the choice but sadly they don't always have one

[VanessaFeltz.]

Also many muslim women get viciously manipulated that if they dont wear burka/hijab they will go to hell or that they are filthy. I was in a fairly liberal family and i didnt know about atheism or that any other beliefs other than Islam/Christianity till i was 14 years old. You cant talk about decisions when you are not given information about other things.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He's saying that IF there is a drive to BAN the headscarf for Muslim women, all others who believe as he does that people should be able to wear whatever they want, should IN SOLIDARITY, IF THEY WANT TO, defy the ban and wear a headscarf as a protest.

Jesus Christ did this forum make it past primary school critical reading level?

What has Jesus Christ got to do with this ? so it's alright for you to insult the Christian religion by being blaspheming but we dare not mention anything to do with a muslim woman's clothes and what we should do ?without you insinuating people are ill educated,IF he believes we should all be wearing what we want to,there was no need for his silly comment was there ?carry on with your thinly veiled insults it's to be expected.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

What has Jesus Christ got to do with this ? so it's alright for you to insult the Christian religion by being blaspheming but we dare not mention anything to do with a muslim woman's clothes and what we should do ?without you insinuating people are ill educated,IF he believes we should all be wearing what we want to,there was no need for his silly comment was there ?carry on with your thinly veiled insults it's to be expected.

It's alright to say what you want - like I said in another post, I am openly anti religion, equal opportunities all religions the same - but "blaspheming" is completely different to banning, or controlling, what people can and can't wear. I think organised religion is superstitious nonsense but I will also defend anyone's right to believe in whatever superstitious nonsense they feel like believing in.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by VanessaFeltz.

I think as a former muslim and living in a society where it is getting ruined day by day because we gave tolerated these people too much i know a lot more how majority of the muslims think than you. You can be sarcastic all you want but there is a great danger waiting for all societies and there are great societies have been ruined by radical islam.

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's alright to say what you want - like I said in another post, I am openly anti religion, equal opportunities all religions the same - but "blaspheming" is completely different to banning, or controlling, what people can and can't wear. I think organised religion is superstitious nonsense but I will also defend anyone's right to believe in whatever superstitious nonsense they feel like believing in.

Don't you think that intervention in certain religious practices is unavoidable i.e. Female mutalation, enforced marriages etc. Some religious practices must be banned in the West. Many also happen to believe that any attempt to undermine female equality is one of them.

Like you I believe religion is superstitious nonsense, but I also believe if that's the way some religions want to carry on they should not be allowed to do so here.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

It sounds like you both have knowledge and experience on the subject but have different views. It certainly doesn't mean that an informed view that is different to yours is laughable. Different experiences and views.

Both are equally valid.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

VF lives in Turkey I think he knows what he is talking about

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The ladies I work with are English, none of them wore a headscarf before they were married, they only did so to please their husbands they openly speak about it in the staff room, while the older Muslim ladies don't wear any so there are varying reasons why women wear headscarfs some to so for faith, some do so to please their partners, some because they live with strict parents/in laws some do it out of choice, some don't, I do believe women should have the choice but sadly they don't always have one

But the women were brought up to follow Islam and Islam teaches women to cover their hair out of respect for both God and their husband. Many women cover their hair before marriage and immediately they change from girl to women. For most young women, they day they put on Hijab is a proud day because its a celebration of womanhood. For a few, they hide the fact they have started their mensa because they know what is expected of them.

[Withano]

PC gone mad when you cant even ask people if they would want to volunteer to wear something under a hypothetical scenario without them getting all upset about it

who is the most unique of all snowflakes is the real debate here

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

PC gone mad when you cant even ask people if they would want to volunteer to wear something under a hypothetical scenario without them getting all upset about it

who is the most unique of all snowflakes is the real debate here

Why suggest 'all' then as that was clearly never going to happen voluntarily. Even a left wing politician should understand that.

As I have said before if you are, as usual, going to resort to insults then you clearly have nothing worth listening to.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

VF lives in Turkey I think he knows what he is talking about

Perhaps so but he made an accusation that he knows more about Muslims than I do and that was a presumption on his part. He probably knows more Sunni's and less Shia's than I do but perhaps I'm making presumptions like he did

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Why suggest 'all' then as that was clearly never going to happen voluntarily. Even a left wing politician should understand that.

As I have said before if you are, as usual, going to resort to insults then you clearly have nothing worth listening to.

All will be asked if they would like to volunteer (in this, still, hypothetical situation) you got a little mad over nothing here

[smudgie]

If I was asked to wear a headscarf for a day in support of ANY woman being allowed to wear one then I would.
Hiding your hair does not hide your identity so poses no security or trust issues, my doctor wears hers to work, I doubt she is bowing to her husbands demands, more a question of her wanting to wear it.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Withano

All will be asked if they would like to volunteer (in this, still, hypothetical situation) you got a little mad over nothing here

The only 'mad' ones I see on here are the ones driven to insult people with a different opinion,now THAT is losing a debate.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by smudgie

If I was asked to wear a headscarf for a day in support of ANY woman being allowed to wear one then I would.
Hiding your hair does not hide your identity so poses no security or trust issues, my doctor wears hers to work, I doubt she is bowing to her husbands demands, more a question of her wanting to wear it.

I agree with that Smudgie,I do however have an issue with this one simply because it has been used in terrorist actions before,all well and good in private but not on our streets,they are dangerous enough.

[Tom4784]

A very misleading thread, if you can't post the whole article then do not cherry pick the parts that suit your agenda since it's not representative of what's been said and leads to a flawed discussion.

I believe that women should wear what they wish to wear with exceptions made to clothes that cover the face in areas where hiding your identity is not ideal. A headscarf does not obscure someone's identity and so I don't have a problem with it.