[joeysteele]

You'd never guess coming to this page that this is a thread made about a Con MP stating that Mrs May has to go this year.

What has been done is sidetrack it onto Corbyn and spout off things all covered in the election and before from a personal hate perspective only.
Quoting the Mail and Express for goodness sake.

Anyway,has anyone any real thoughts on what the Con MP said as to Mrs May having to go backed up by Anna Soubry too today too.
Rather than hide the failure of Mrs May and the mess she has brought to govt.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

You can't have it every way though, a lot has been said about how he is a principled man and has stuck to his beliefs all his life. So, if that were the case, then what he did 20+ years ago is very relevant.

I am a firm believer in democracy, and if enough people vote for him, and bring him to power, then I will accept it, but I won't ever agree with him or support him.

I would never support a Tory led government by May now either, she is damaged goods and needs to go.

If either of the 2 parties genuinely learn anything, it should have been that the country is divided and moving further to the left or right and becoming less rather than more inclusive is not the answer.

[user104658]

Don't you quote me with your reasonableness Ms Ammi I'm the one on this thread already saying that it's not all black and white.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

All I can do now is laugh at the sheer refusal to face the facts ....and as much as I dislike the bigoted DUP, their links to terrorism is a drop in the ocean compared to those of the IRA. Further, Arlene Foster wasn't running for British Prime Minister and getting great support, Corbyn was.

Who is being hypocritical again?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'll give you this much Brillo: I'm at least starting to understand that you have genuine fears that fuel your political beliefs and you're not just typing to score points. So that's progress, I suppose.

However I think, from now several months of experience on these forums (years? I can't remember when you rejoined tbh) that you have a very black and white view of the issues at hand and see it all as being "really quite simple" when they are actually, without exception, really very complex. I think by extension of that, you also assume that those who have opposing views to you also see things as being black and white / simple?

I am aware that Corbyn is not a perfect choice. I didn't and haven't ever voted Labour. However I am also aware that the SNP and their policies are far from perfect; they are my BEST choice but in all honesty I wish I had a better one. I am also aware that there are Conservative MPs who have the best of intentions for their constituents.

But the overall trajectory of the Conservative Party under Theresa May, their pandering to authoritarian sensibilities, their deliberate destruction to pave the way for privatisation that benefits them and those close to them directly... None of that can be safely ignored, either?

You have a stance of "defending them no matter what", spinning everything into a positive no matter how obviously negative it is, and it makes it impossible to have any sort of genuine political discussion.

TBH it's not so much defending Tories as protecting us from Labour. I do feel safer with the Tories. I am not rich, I'm ok, although I have struggled in the past, but I feel on more solid ground with them. I don't particularly like May, I would rather see David Davis as PM, but she is PM ATM so I will support her.

Like most I want more money spent our public services, especially the NHS, but not at the cost of our security and freedoms and, ATM, I feel the tories and their policies are the most likely to do that. I also want to see a fairer society but the way Labour are going about it with policies that will break the bank and put us further in debt is not the way to do it. Corbynis full of promises, like he thinks he has all the answers, but with nothing substantial to back them up in my book. Add that to the security risk I feel he poses I don't want anything to do with him.

I care about the future of my children and their families and with Corbyn and his views I fear for the future for all our children. I feel he cares more about minority groups than the majority of people in this country. There is of course nothing wrong with caring about the less fortunate or excluded in our society but I sometimes feel he takes it to extremes and sees himself, rather arrogantly, as some kind of saviour for all mankind - he us not - and I think this blinds his viewpoint and makes him potentially dangerous - hence his sympathetic views on terrorists.

He seems to see terrorism as some kind of understandable fight against injustice and it isn't. Terrorism is never justified. I think he may have a chip on his shoulder about his privileged upbringing and some kind of 'issue' with the way he was brought up. But then again, like many politicians, maybe he is simply on a power trip, but is better as disguising his motives. Anyway there are too many maybe's in my mind to trust him.

Then or course there is Brexit, God help us if he gets his hands on that, is all I can say. I want the tories for that.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

All I can do now is laugh at the sheer refusal to face the facts ....and as much as I dislike the bigoted DUP, their links to terrorism is a drop in the ocean compared to those of the IRA. Further, Arlene Foster wasn't running for British Prime Minister and getting great support, Corbyn was.

Who is being hypocritical again?

A heavy bias is starting to show now here, jet, and it's a real disservice to the measured and balanced posts you were making just yesterday. You've prompted me to pencil in a time to honestly, genuinely and openly look into Corbyn's history with the IRA when I get the time to give it the attention it deserves (currently being intermittently pestered by two bored children).

But your posts today are a world apart and the balance has completely disappeared? It's a shame, is all I'm saying really, and I hope your earlier posts were the genuine ones.

[edited to add] I'm not on a high horse here, I'm no stranger to having my posts dip (or plummet) in quality for emotional reasons. Dunno if anyone has noticed though fingers crossed.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I feel your frustrations so much, Jet....it's always been a difficult one for me as well with Jeremy Corbyn because of personal reasons and connections with NI and I make no excuses for him at all..(other than..)...people/situations/world events etc are so complicated as to make people so multi-dimensional...for us living in England, I guess you could say that it's less 'black and white'..?...as unpopular as this will be, I don't really want a government head of Jeremy Corbyn but not because of any IRA links he's had, more because I just don't feel he's the answer to the (..well grim mess..)...we all find ourselves in...he's too 'left' and too much the opposite of Theresa May and what our present government have been with the extreme austerity in this country...no 'extreme' is good and we've certainly had an extreme government to prove that..what I feel we need is a leader to bring it all back toward the centre...not pull in the opposite direction, you know...that for me will only continue problems and a divided country but just a different set of problems...I think we need a Labour government so much right now, but I'm so not sure about him being the person to lead it....having said that, we still have to experience the difference he would make as a leader/good/bad/or indifferent whereas with Theresa May and the Conservatives, we've had that experience and it's fairly rubbish.....

...this country is so much in divide at atm..and I think more than anything else, that's what is weakening us and making it all feel impossible...there is very little tolerance from anyone, the intolerance is just directed at different things and in different directions is all...and the 'sides' are just pushing further and further apart in a 'split country'...I guess I just can't see that changing with Jeremy Corbyn as PM if it ever happens..(but we'll see, if it does..)...Brexit really was the thing that showed how divided we were with such a close vote...and the closeness of the voting in this election has showed that the 'coming together' is still a far off 'dream'...it's really hard for anyone who is more in the centre to have their voice heard with all of the screaming at each other of the 'left and right'...(and very little listening' with minds already made up..)...actually strangely one of the things I liked most of all that Jeremy said during the campaign...that we need ears to communicate and understand as well...the silly thing is, is that we all want the same thing, don't we, were our fears and concerns come from are the only thing that really differs...I know the Conservative party with their present policies and leader can't bring us what we need and sadly I don't think Jeremy can either...but if he could and if he did..?...that would also balance some of the things of his past..?..for me it would anyway, but we're all going to be different in our personal painful experiences....


...anyways, I think that I've just droned on and made no sense at all but I'd read your posts in this thread...and as always, they made me think so much and are such thought provoking reads...I completely, completely, completely understand your frustrations my friend...you take care, ok/I hope you're enjoying BB and have chosen a good favourite for me to champion.....

........

Ammi, you have the ability to calm and make things seem that they are not worth getting all tied up in knots over. Have I told you lately that I love you?

I haven't been watching much of BB yet and I haven't a favourite...I better get with it and stick to posting in the BB forum, it's a lot less stressful. I think it's time for me to be done in here.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You'd never guess coming to this page that this is a thread made about a Con MP stating that Mrs May has to go this year.

What has been done is sidetrack it onto Corbyn and spout off things all covered in the election and before from a personal hate perspective only.
Quoting the Mail and Express for goodness sake.

Anyway,has anyone any real thoughts on what the Con MP said as to Mrs May having to go backed up by Anna Soubry too today too.
Rather than hide the failure of Mrs May and the mess she has brought to govt.

There were 3 sources all saying the same thing so what a moot point. Besides I did a check on the Express for it's bias and it was classed as centre right, from memory, and a newspaper known for producing fact based articles - but don't let your own bias get in the way of that.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

TBH it's not so much defending Tories as protecting us from Labour. I do feel safer with the Tories. I am not rich, I'm ok, although I have struggled in the past, but I feel on more solid ground with them. I don't particularly like May, I would rather see David Davis as PM, but she is PM ATM so I will support her.

Like most I want more money spent our public services, especially the NHS, but not at the cost of our security and freedoms and, ATM, I feel the tories and their policies are the most likely to do that. I also want to see a fairer society but the way Labour are going about it with policies that will break the bank and put us further in debt is not the way to do it. Corbynis full of promises, like he thinks he has all the answers, but with nothing substantial to back them up in my book. Add that to the security risk I feel he poses I don't want anything to do with him.

I care about the future of my children and their families and with Corbyn and his views I fear for the future for all our children. I feel he cares more about minority groups than the majority of people in this country. There is of course nothing wrong with caring about the less fortunate or excluded in our society but I sometimes feel he takes it to extremes and sees himself, rather arrogantly, as some kind of saviour for all mankind - he us not - and I think this blinds his viewpoint and makes him potentially dangerous - hence his sympathetic views on terrorists.

He seems to see terrorism as some kind of understandable fight against injustice and it isn't. Terrorism is never justified. I think he may have a chip on his shoulder about his privileged upbringing and some kind of 'issue' with the way he was brought up. But then again, like many politicians, maybe he is simply on a power trip, but is better as disguising his motives. Anyway there are too many maybe's in my mind to trust him.

Most of that is pretty reasonable, I suppose. I do think you maybe overlook the dramatic impact that Conservative "over-cutting" could have on public services - I think they have the real potential to do irreversible damage there that will affect everyone at some point, and there are definitely more than a couple of characters high up in the party who are purely self-serving (Johnson, Gove, Hunt, quite honestly May, etc.). If the party could cut out that element, they would be much stronger for it.

In terms of Corbyn I suppose I can appreciate the concern that he might not take external threats seriously enough, for those who see those threats as the most pressing issue we currently face. I genuinely don't, and I think the current "unyielding" approach needs some serious thought in order for truly effective solutions to be found, but I can see why people who think otherwise would find Corbyn worrying. I still maintain though, that the idea that he actively WANTS to see people harmed by terrorist attacks is highly, highly unlikely. I'm sure that at the very least he does believe that he is a pacifist who seeks peace and the most that can be said about that is that he's misguided in how far he's willing to take that (by truly befriending violent individuals - if he indeed has - like I said I'm going to properly look into it at some point for myself because being honest, I haven't much and I'm obviously not interested in what "the papers" have to say about it).

Then or course there is Brexit, God help us if he gets his hands on that, is all I can say. I want the tories for that.

I honestly think Brexit should be a separate issue at this point, it's muddying the waters for one and also, party politics is disrupting the issue. My honest belief is that some sort of cross-party group outside of election politics needs to take over handling the Brexit process or it is going to go absolutely horribly for everyone. We all know it's happening now, everyone wants the best possible outcome... electioneering needs to be kept AWAY from it completely. At the very least, May has to be kept right out of the process. WHether you're a Conservative supporter or not... the bare fact is, she does not have what it takes to go into negotiations with the EU heavy hitters and come away with a good deal for the country. She simply can't do it. She couldn't back when it was looking like she had a huge majorty of the country behind her... and she doesn't even have that to prop her up now. They will never take her seriously.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jet

The fact is Corbyn supporters just don't seem to care that he was a friend and sympathiser of murderers - I find that chilling, but then it wasn't their relatives or friends his buddies murdered eh? As long as Corbyn sweet talks them with the dubious promises of a lot more pounds in their pockets, he's their man and they will close their eyes and ears and just refuse to believe or care about so called 'slurs' against His Benevolence. Money certainly does talk and it talks louder than respect for human life - the root of all evil indeed.

The IRA did murder civilians over the years as did the Loyalist paramilitaries on the other side. Murders should never be condoned or justified, which ever side they were on. Nobody is suggesting the IRA were angels but if we are going to call them evil murderers then we must also accept that both sides had blood on their hands and all of that has been recorded in history.

We too suffered the bombings in the UK. We too suffered the loss of loved ones; be them civilians or British soldiers in NI. We had to bury our dead just as Ireland had to.

We also need to include the U.S government for funding the IRA. Kennedy, Nixon, Carter and Reagan all had strong ancestral heritage with Ireland and they certainly didn't like the way the Catholics were being treated in the North. Does that make Nixon, Carter, Kennedy and Reagan terrorists? And what about Blair who did so much to bring about a peace treaty in NI. Was he a terrorist for joining forces with the U.S lie and helped bring about a war that killed hundreds and thousands of innocents. Should we call Cameron and May terrorists for funding the Saudi's who in turn fund ISIS and who also support and fund the Israeli apartheid?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All this Corbyn stuff is just plain silly, people are clinging onto things that happened 20+ years ago which have been blown out of proportion and even presented in a false manner for purposes of character assassination all while ignoring the fact that May is arming the middle east which has the effect of stirring that volatile pot and is actually, in this day and age, is in talks of forming an actual coallition with a party that ACTUALLY has links to terrorism.

You can't make up this level of rampant hypocrisy.

Twenty years is really not that long ago, although of course it seems it when you are only in your early twenties - but Corbyn knows Better.

Terrorism is a heinous crime and any sympathy for it, no matter how long ago, can ever be ignored. He has also demonstrated similar views much more recently regarding ISIS so as a supporter of his your own rampant hypocrisy does not go unnoticed.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A heavy bias is starting to show now here, jet, and it's a real disservice to the measured and balanced posts you were making just yesterday. You've prompted me to pencil in a time to honestly, genuinely and openly look into Corbyn's history with the IRA when I get the time to give it the attention it deserves (currently being intermittently pestered by two bored children).

But your posts today are a world apart and the balance has completely disappeared? It's a shame, is all I'm saying really, and I hope your earlier posts were the genuine ones.

[edited to add] I'm not on a high horse here, I'm no stranger to having my posts dip (or plummet) in quality for emotional reasons. Dunno if anyone has noticed though fingers crossed.

Yes, I would agree with you that my posts are becoming more emotional and probably just plain bloody minded due to frustration. I have very personal reasons for getting so emotional about Corbyn and I can't expect anyone to feel what I feel, that's impossible and unfair. So if I can't maintain balance I should opt out of the discussion, and I will.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jet

Yes, I would agree with you that my posts are becoming more emotional and probably just plain bloody minded due to frustration. I have very personal reasons for getting so emotional about Corbyn and I can't expect anyone to feel what I feel, that's impossible and unfair. So if I can't maintain balance I should opt out of the discussion, and I will.

A much bigger post than most on here. Hat off to you Jet. But your opinions are as valid as anyone else's, probably more so because of your experience, so please come back.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Twenty years is really not that long ago, although of course it seems it when you are only in your early twenties - but Corbyn knows Better.

Terrorism is a heinous crime and any sympathy for it, no matter how long ago, can ever be ignored. He has also demonstrated similar views much more recently regarding ISIS so as a supporter of his your own rampant hypocrisy does not go unnoticed.

If any of this is true then why hasn't he been forced to resign? People have been outcast from politics for less so, if he truly was a terrorist sympathiser, then how has he managed to stay in politics for so long? It doesn't make much sense if what you are saying is true.

Then again, your definition of 'terrorist sympathiser' has always been a bit wonky, just because he isn't bloodthirsty and values peace over war doesn't make him a terrorist sympathiser.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If any of this is true then why hasn't he been forced to resign? People have been outcast from politics for less so, if he truly was a terrorist sympathiser, then how has he managed to stay in politics for so long? It doesn't make much sense if what you are saying is true.

Then again, your definition of 'terrorist sympathiser' has always been a bit wonky, just because he isn't bloodthirsty and values peace over war doesn't make him a terrorist sympathiser.

What you just said is really important in this discussion. There is a difference between a terrorist sympathiser and a person who has sympathy with a cause. The IRA has fought against British rule in Northern Ireland. Ironic as this may sound, when the British army drove into Northern Ireland, it did so to protect the Catholics. The IRA at that time had no popular support and were tiny in number but within a year of the British Army going in, the discontent against British rule had nationalism grow enormously.

The Nationalists/Republicans have always stood for an independent Ireland. The Loyalists/Unionists want to remain part of the UK. What Corbyn is sympathetic to, is an Irish right to unity, independence and freedom like they have in the rest of Ireland. None of us should be fooled into believing all of Northern Ireland want to live in a duplicated bureaucracy with political solutions effectively imposed upon them and the British state.

And you know what I find really alarming... Most of us Brits know little to nothing about Northern Ireland. It was hammered down our throats in school that the IRA were bad and the Unionists were good. Other than that we are told the words of Reginald Maudling when he flew back from a meeting with Unionist politicians and declared to us all what an awful place Northern Ireland is.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by jet

The fact is Corbyn supporters just don't seem to care that he was a friend and sympathiser of murderers - I find that chilling, but then it wasn't their relatives or friends his buddies murdered eh? As long as Corbyn sweet talks them with the dubious promises of a lot more pounds in their pockets, he's their man and they will close their eyes and ears and just refuse to believe or care about so called 'slurs' against His Benevolence. Money certainly does talk and it talks louder than respect for human life - the root of all evil indeed.

Indeed.
Who knew so many could be bought.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Indeed.
Who knew so many could be bought.

Is this the new rhetoric now? That anyone who doesn't vote Tory is greedy and moneygrubbing and just wants more money in their own back pocket? Petty and untrue, is all there really is to say about that. I can't imagine those saying it even believe it, just deliberately trying to be offensive .

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Is this the new rhetoric now? That anyone who doesn't vote Tory is greedy and moneygrubbing and just wants more money in their own back pocket? Petty and untrue, is all there really is to say about that. I can't imagine those saying it even believe it, just deliberately trying to be offensive .

It's the same deal as Brexit. Anyone who doesn't share the same opinion as Leavers were often branded 'undemocratic' and 'traitors'.

I don't think they realised the irony of it.

[bots]

Given that Corbyn was preaching anti austerity and he was basically handing out Ł10 notes, people did vote because he was giving out free money. That was the whole platform that he stood on. To suggest anything else is pure denial.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yet another U turn, not a word will be said about this because they are English terrorists who never got any condemnation in the British press, they were only killing Irish Catholics so no need to report that

Amen to that... And still that is not being highlighted in the press, out current govt is a lying, hypocritical, shambles and thank god people have woken up to that!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Given that Corbyn was preaching anti austerity and he was basically handing out Ł10 notes, people did vote because he was giving out free money. That was the whole platform that he stood on. To suggest anything else is pure denial.

What a gross over-simplification of anti-austerity philosophy

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Only yours.

Corbyn is well known in N Ireland as an IRA sympathiser.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...IRA-links.html

Do you condemn his links to terrorism? His IRA buddies with links to Sinn Fein including their leader McGuiness killed and maimed thousands of innocent people, including women and children.
Much as I dislike the DUP, they are nothing compared to Sinn Fein and their buddies the murderous IRA.

Educate yourself before you pontificate about a country you haven't lived in all your life like I have. Perhaps if you had friends killed by the IRA you wouldn't think Corbyn such a great guy. That great guy spoke at rallies every year commemorating the loss of IRA killers. He makes me sick.

That's a Freudian slip if ever I saw one.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What a gross over-simplification of anti-austerity philosophy

Indeed.

[Brillopad]

Corbyn will forever be known as the desperate man that buys votes from the young.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If he "was considered a security threat" he wouldn't be in his position. It's as simple as that. Unless you believe the authorities to be incompetent to sitcom-levels.

Well indeed. Its a bit ridiculous isn't it. The right wing papers and apparently most right wing voters can all see that he is a huge threat to the country. But...the authorities ignore it. Yeah, because that would happen

Maybe he is on the 3000 people watch list and will be reported if he tries to rent a vehicle