[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

DUC and Sinn Fein are political parties are they not. If there is nothing in the rules that says they cannot form an alliance with a government then to keep bleating on about any of them doing so is just tactics. Take it up with the political rule-makers. I have no doubt in my mind if JC had been in the position of having to form an alliance with Sinn Fein he would have. Other Labour leaders have done so with the DUC.

As for the 'bribe' - the DUC are supporting and working with Government - it is an alliance - therefore they are entitled to some kind of consideration when money is allocated.

Who?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who?

Well Sinn Féinn don't even take their Westminster seats so no deals would or could be done with them.
There shouldn't be either.
Equally the DUP should not be in any national UK govt deal either.

They were sounded out by Gordon Brown as to how strong any opposition to Labour they had in 2010.
Their 8 MPs then hardly any relevance to either major party at that time.

This moaning at Sinn Féinn is pointless, they were and are a vital element to the peace process in N Ireland and if they were not part of it,the peace process could not likely even exist.

[the truth]

Too many expensive useless meaningless degree courses, too many easy grades being given out for a levels, some just for course work , mostly downloaded. Uni should only be for the very intelligent. Not promised to everyone. The fees however should be slashed. To ensure these costs are found elsewhere, we need a stronger economy though and far less public sector waste. This means less corrupt wasteful councils, slashing middle management across the pubic sector and nhs. Hold these councils more responsible for going over their budgets and punish them for the insane waste and mismanagement of public funds and resources,

[Livia]

How about we reorganise the academic year around the fruit and veg picking seasons?! Kill two birds with one stone...

I was disgusted when Labour introduced tuition fees and I was disgusted when the Tories trebled it. Education should be free.... and it could be made affordable by reducing the number of meaningless degrees on offer.

[jet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well Sinn Féinn don't even take their Westminster seats so no deals would or could be done with them.
There shouldn't be either.
Equally the DUP should not be in any national UK govt deal either.

They were sounded out by Gordon Brown as to how strong any opposition to Labour they had in 2010.
Their 8 MPs then hardly any relevance to either major party at that time.

This moaning at Sinn Féinn is pointless, they were and are a vital element to the peace process in N Ireland and if they were not part of it,the peace process could not likely even exist

Yes, it was so good of them to agree to give the IRA the heads up to stop killing people when they finally realised it was getting them nowhere and their arms were becoming seriously depleted. They were bribed with amnesty from prosecution and freeing all their murderers from prison, alongside many other benefits. Imagine Labour having to bribe people to stop murdering - yet it was worth it to save many more lives.
ALL the parties were a vital element in the peace process. It could never have worked without everyone agreeing. John Hume, the SDLP leader, got the Nobel Peace Prize, as did David Trimble, the Unionist Party leader for their work. Did any Sinn Fein members? Of course not, and we all know why. Martin McGuiness did an excellent peace time job but it should never be forgotten that as an IRA Chief he ordered the murder of many people.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Yes, it was so good of them to agree to give the IRA the heads up to stop killing people when they finally realised it was getting them nowhere and their arms were becoming seriously depleted. They were bribed with amnesty from prosecution and freeing all their murderers from prison, alongside many other benefits. Imagine Labour having to bribe people to stop murdering - yet it was worth it to save many more lives.
ALL the parties were a vital element in the peace process. It could never have worked without everyone agreeing. John Hume, the SDLP leader, got the Nobel Peace Prize, as did David Trimble, the Unionist Party leader for their work. Did any Sinn Fein members? Of course not, and we all know why. Martin McGuiness did an excellent peace time job but it should never be forgotten that as an IRA Chief he ordered the murder of many people.

There were murders on both sides, please don't attempt to suggest unionists were entirely blameless. Blood was spilt, that's a given.

For me there is no entirely right or entirely wrong for either extreme, it had to end and thankfully it did. This deal smacks of exoneration, no wonder it sticks in Sinn Feins craw.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who?

[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There were murders on both sides, please don't attempt to suggest unionists were entirely blameless. Blood was spilt, that's a given.

For me there is no entirely right or entirely wrong for either extreme, it had to end and thankfully it did. This deal smacks of exoneration, no wonder it sticks in Sinn Feins craw.

I was replying to Joeys comment about Sinn Fein - you know, the one I bolded.
It's a given that Loyalists weren't entirely blameless surely?

Sinn Fein would have no right to have anything stick in their craw after the bribe they accepted to halt the killings.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

I was replying to Joeys comment about Sinn Fein - you know, the one I bolded.
It's a given that Loyalists weren't entirely blameless surely?

Sinn Fein would have no right to have anything stick in their craw after the bribe they accepted to halt the killings.

Then what is your issue? Out of interest was there any Operation Demetrius for unionists?...

[waterhog]

I think education education education is a good thing. I am still studying poetry and I am not better then when I first started and I have spent more then 100 bn so I hope that puts things in perspective

[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Then what is your issue? Out of interest was there any Operation Demetrius for unionists?...

I think you already know the answer to that - yes, there was for some Loyalists, but it was mainly Republicans interned.

The IRA started the Troubles with their bombing campaign - killing thousands, among them innocent women and children. Peace descended when they stopped. Does that say anything to you?

Internment was introduced at a time when the bombing was vicious, it was thought it would curtail their activities and save lives, but it only made things worse. The Loyalists's main way of operating was not with bombs but to shoot mainly innocent Catholics in retaliation, (which is of course wrong), but not killing masses of people including children in restaurants, bars, during fun days out, in the street etc with bombs.

I lived here during it all, I suffered at the hands of the IRA as did thousands of others. I have never once seen you outright condemn them or their official political party, Sinn Fein, (and you are not the only one, tbf) yet you love to criticise the DUP. Is that because they don't like Corbyn, the iRA supporter? Or do you sympathise with them like he does?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

How about we reorganise the academic year around the fruit and veg picking seasons?! Kill two birds with one stone...

I was disgusted when Labour introduced tuition fees and I was disgusted when the Tories trebled it. Education should be free.... and it could be made affordable by reducing the number of meaningless degrees on offer.

I think you make interesting points in most of your post.

Like you I was furious Labour introduced tuition fees at 3k absolutely.

The Con plan to at least double them in 2010 lost the Cons my vote.
Unbelievable disgust then followed from me when they legislated not doubling them but 'trebling' them, then got Lib Dem support to do so too.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

I have never once seen you outright condemn them or their official political party, Sinn Fein, (and you are not the only one, tbf) yet you love to criticise the DUP. Is that because they don't like Corbyn, the iRA supporter? Or do you sympathise with them like he does?

Can't speak for Kizzo but I will anyway coz she always agrees with me.

Anyway, my position is this;

I absolutely am "anti-IRA" and I would be utterly horrified of Sinn Fein got a whiff of power in a Westminster coalition. I would have just as many criticisms, I;d be speaking out just as loudly against it.

However... they don't. The DUP are in that position. Sinn Fein is not. So it's a moot point. You seem really focussed on this "Why aren't you criticising Sinn Fein like you are the DUP???". The answer is short and simple; Sinn Fein are not in a Westminster coalition, being wined and dined by the government of the wider UK. If and when they are, if people aren't criticising it, then you will have questions to ask. Until then, it's just simply irrelevant.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can't speak for Kizzo but I will anyway coz she always agrees with me.

Anyway, my position is this;

I absolutely am "anti-IRA" and I would be utterly horrified of Sinn Fein got a whiff of power in a Westminster coalition. I would have just as many criticisms, I;d be speaking out just as loudly against it.

However... they don't. The DUP are in that position. Sinn Fein is not. So it's a moot point. You seem really focussed on this "Why aren't you criticising Sinn Fein like you are the DUP???". The answer is short and simple; Sinn Fein are not in a Westminster coalition, being wined and dined by the government of the wider UK. If and when they are, if people aren't criticising it, then you will have questions to ask. Until then, it's just simply irrelevant.

Concerning Kizzy, I never addressed her, she inserted herself into a reply I was giving to Joeys post about the DuP/Sinn Fein and she asked me disingenuous questions that were nothing to do with the coalition either.

I only mentioned them in the first place in this thread because of an accusation Dezzy threw at me.
But tbh I don't feel the need to wait for a good or current reason to criticise Sinn Fein or the IRA, although in this case it was not my intention.

[Vicky.]

I'm not sure uni fees need to be abolished totally. But I do think they are at ridiculous levels. This would be one pledge I wouldn't mind seeing Corbyn back down on..or at least tweak a little bit. I think other areas need more attention first though, given student loans don't even start getting paid back until higher wages are reached, so they aren't like...real debts which have to be paid even when you fall on hard times.

Having said that...I find it most peculiar that people that support the endless Tory cuts to the likes of the NHS and such..suddenly care about NHS funding.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Free education for all, higher entry requirements across the board, if I'm being honest. Get rid of the situation we have now where many jobs that realistically don't require higher education nonetheless have a "must have a-degree-any-degree" checkbox to tick on the application form, and also make it that you need more than two C's and a swimming certificate to get into University.

Have to admit that I am a bit of an academic snob. I believe that getting into University should be based purely on ability, not financial considerations or anything else, and I also quite strongly believe that academia is being dramatically "dumbed down" with being turned into tuitions fees factories where they will accept pretty much anyone in order to harvest their cash, regardless of whether or not they will actually thrive in higher education.

Also, schools need to stop pushing so hard for 18 year olds to go straight to University out of the school gates! SOME people truly have a lath in mind and a course set at 18. A very small number of people. Most would benefit hugely from having a few years to actually figure out what they want to do, rather than heading off to university "because everyone else is". I definitely would have. I trotted along to Uni "because that's what you do next the teachers said so" and swapped degrees three times, never went to classes, ended up dropping out without a degree because I had zero motivation in the first place. Now that I'm older and wiser (the wisest, let's face it) I would absolutely love to go back into academia, but it's not financially or practically realistic, at least not until my wife graduates and is earning.

However I honestly believe that if I hadn't "rushed" to Uni at 18 and had taken 2 or 3 years to actually think about it, I would have gone in much more focused in the first place.

Posted without reading any replies just before, up to here and...this reply is magnificent tbh. This is a huge problem with unis (and a lot of other areas of life)...cash matters more than ability.

I kind of understand now why it could be a good idea to abolish fees actually, as yes, there would probably be more demand which would lead to people being turned down...but is this necessarily a bad thing? More applications in this case just mean that it truly would go on ability rather than money.

[Withano]

Not to get too patriotic.. but isnt the education levels in the UK one of its greatest assets? Why cant we prioritise that, other countries do.
Corbyn was always gonna tax the wealthy corporations that were raking in their cash, something the tories will never put in place - Labour have the money to move - the tories do not.
This is more of a hypothetical argument, it has been since the OP, but I do believe further education should be free, it works well in many other countries.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

Concerning Kizzy, I never addressed her, she inserted herself into a reply I was giving to Joeys post about the DuP/Sinn Fein and she asked me disingenuous questions that were nothing to do with the coalition either.

I only mentioned them in the first place in this thread because of an accusation Dezzy threw at me.
But tbh I don't feel the need to wait for a good or current reason to criticise Sinn Fein or the IRA, although in this case it was not my intention.

It's a debate forum I'll insert myself where I see fit, My questions were not disingenuous they were entirely relevant. The 'they started it' response was pretty disingenuous if I'm honest. This is going way off topic now and TS has made a great point to end on, Sinn Fein are not in power here nor should they be, that should be duplicated for the unionists too due to their past affiliations.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's a debate forum I'll insert myself where I see fit, My questions were not disingenuous they were entirely relevant. The 'they started it' response was pretty disingenuous if I'm honest. This is going way off topic now and TS has made a great point to end on, Sinn Fein are not in power here nor should they be, that should be duplicated for the unionists too due to their past affiliations.

You just want the Tories out and your precious Corbyn in - get rid of the DUP and you could get May out - is that your plan. No agenda there then.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jet

In the article -

How does that work when 80% of all student debt is never paid anyway?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

How does that work when 80% of all student debt is never paid anyway?

Where did you get 80% from - I read it was a third (33%).

Those that benefit the most from no fees will be the high earners (mostly middle class) who would have been in a position to pay their debts.

So the average lower paid worker will be paying their debts for them through taxation whilst those Middle-class high earners get steadily wealthier. Thinking about the many my arse.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You just want the Tories out and your precious Corbyn in - get rid of the DUP and you could get May out - is that your plan. No agenda there then.

Can you stick to the topic and stop attacking my politics please? These hairbrained theories of yours are getting silly.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can you stick to the topic and stop attacking my politics please? These hairbrained theories of yours are getting silly.

My hairbrained theories! I think you have cornered the market on conspiracy theories.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

My hairbrained theories! I think you have cornered the market on conspiracy theories.

'I know you are but what am I?'

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Where did you get 80% from - I read it was a third (33%).

Those that benefit the most from no fees will be the high earners (mostly middle class) who would have been in a position to pay their debts.

So the average lower paid worker will be paying their debts for them through taxation whilst those Middle-class high earners get steadily wealthier. Thinking about the many my arse.

No thought to the poor unfortunates getting ripped off on the interest on these loans?