[Livia]

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

When I lived in London, I knew a lot of white people who danced Bhangra. Should they be allowed to wear traditional Indian dress if they're white?

My opinion is that, if you intend to insult and ridicule, then you're racist. If you're having a party, a parade, whatever... and your intention is not to insult and ridicule, then what's the harm?

Kids dressed up as cowboys and Indians for years yet I've never heard anyone complain that it was insulting to Native Americans who, incidentally, per head of capita are the largest ethnic group in the USA to suffer fatal shootings at the hands of the police. I find it interesting that no one's taken up their plight and had a march.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

They are the same for me whether 'p shop' or 'c takeway' in my experience the people which use those terms will also use them as a racially aggravated descriptor 'effing p' or 'effing c'.
I don't recognise that one is any more or less offensive than the other personally.

Maybe it's different by area, I rarely hear it used in the context of anything but the food and... to be frank... I hear "English" used as a slur far more often (English ****, English bastard, English whatever) so as mentioned before, I think context matters. Or to go back to the earlier example; I hate being referred to as "Scotch" and I'd guess most Scottish people do... but no one takes issue with the term "Scotch Whiskey". Likewise, in my (admittedly limited) experience of Chinese people in Britain, they would not like to be called "Chinkies" but have no issue with people referring to a Chinese meal as "getting a Chinky". Also most of my colleagues refer to it in those terms but would lose their **** (and have done) if they heard any slur like that being used in a derogatory or aggressive way.

It's fair enough to NOT want to call it that for whatever reason... I personally don't either because I'm a bit of a posho in that I don't really use many colloquialisms in general (I don't even call small things "wee" )

And, tbf, if a Chinese person ever said "I'd rather you didn't call it that" I'd expect people to respect that and not just defiantly be like "Tough I'll call it what I want!!" because there's just no need.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

As a matter of interest though, I'm sure there would be some Jewish people who WOULD have a problem with a Nazi costume and what would be your opinion / reacting to a fellow Jew (and the situation) in your company if they were uncomfortable with it?

Surely there's an element of moderating oneself based on the present company, if their feelings on it are known, anyway. For example, one of my best friends is a gay man and he finds "gay jokes" hilarious... like side-splittingly funny... to more controversial the better. He's just a fan of controversial humour... he has the best nervous laugh... he's terrified of people telling him that they've had a family member die because he has an uncontrollable urge to laugh at inappropriate times . So a lot of what most people would consider unacceptable "gay jokes" fly around if he's out with old friends. However, his partner is not-so-comfortable with it so when they're both there, it obviously gets reigned right in.

I also wonder if it's maybe down to past experiences? As my friend had a relatively easy / accepting "coming out" and as far as I know never really experienced anything in the way of verbal attacks or abuse "for real". If he had maybe it would "taint" any light-hearted controversial joking on the subject?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe it's different by area, I rarely hear it used in the context of anything but the food and... to be frank... I hear "English" used as a slur far more often (English ****, English bastard, English whatever) so as mentioned before, I think context matters. Or to go back to the earlier example; I hate being referred to as "Scotch" and I'd guess most Scottish people do... but no one takes issue with the term "Scotch Whiskey". Likewise, in my (admittedly limited) experience of Chinese people in Britain, they would not like to be called "Chinkies" but have no issue with people referring to a Chinese meal as "getting a Chinky". Also most of my colleagues refer to it in those terms but would lose their **** (and have done) if they heard any slur like that being used in a derogatory or aggressive way.

It's fair enough to NOT want to call it that for whatever reason... I personally don't either because I'm a bit of a posho in that I don't really use many colloquialisms in general (I don't even call small things "wee" )

And, tbf, if a Chinese person ever said "I'd rather you didn't call it that" I'd expect people to respect that and not just defiantly be like "Tough I'll call it what I want!!" because there's just no need.

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf...

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As a matter of interest though, I'm sure there would be some Jewish people who WOULD have a problem with a Nazi costume and what would be your opinion / reacting to a fellow Jew (and the situation) in your company if they were uncomfortable with it?

Surely there's an element of moderating oneself based on the present company, if their feelings on it are known, anyway. For example, one of my best friends is a gay man and he finds "gay jokes" hilarious... like side-splittingly funny... to more controversial the better. He's just a fan of controversial humour... he has the best nervous laugh... he's terrified of people telling him that they've had a family member die because he has an uncontrollable urge to laugh at inappropriate times . So a lot of what most people would consider unacceptable "gay jokes" fly around if he's out with old friends. However, his partner is not-so-comfortable with it so when they're both there, it obviously gets reigned right in.

I also wonder if it's maybe down to past experiences? As my friend had a relatively easy / accepting "coming out" and as far as I know never really experienced anything in the way of verbal attacks or abuse "for real". If he had maybe it would "taint" any light-hearted controversial joking on the subject?

Interestingly, I did have a discussion about this with my grandmother. She's a Holocaust Survivor in her 90s. She tutted and rolled her eyes. But she wasn't insulted. It was a party... they weren't gassing Jews. In the same way she doesn't take offence at 'Allo 'Allo.

I do see what you're saying though and yes, there will be some Jews who might have taken offence. But really, you can't please all of the people all of the time. Indeed, you could die trying.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf...

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

Its a Scottish thing to put Y's on things like bevvy, chippy, icy (ice cream van), drinky (yon dug is havin a wee drinky fae that dub), chinky, a wee warmy at the fire, a wee cuppy tea, going for a proper swally oan a Friday etc

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

When I lived in London, I knew a lot of white people who danced Bhangra. Should they be allowed to wear traditional Indian dress if they're white?

My opinion is that, if you intend to insult and ridicule, then you're racist. If you're having a party, a parade, whatever... and your intention is not to insult and ridicule, then what's the harm?

Kids dressed up as cowboys and Indians for years yet I've never heard anyone complain that it was insulting to Native Americans who, incidentally, per head of capita are the largest ethnic group in the USA to suffer fatal shootings at the hands of the police. I find it interesting that no one's taken up their plight and had a march.

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf...

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

I find it quite hard to accept that you're so careful not to hurt people's feeling when ordering a takeaway, but you are capable of being quite rude and cutting on here. It's a fine balance to strike.

I don't speak for the whole Jewish community as you intimate in your last post. But then, you don't speak for the whole of the Chinese community.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Its a Scottish thing to put Y's on things like bevvy, chippy, icy (ice cream van), drinky (yon dug is havin a wee drinky fae that dub), chinky, a wee warmy at the fire, a wee cuppy tea, going for a proper swally oan a Friday etc

I'm from Yorkshire... We say lovey, chippy, drinky and many others. C **** is an offensive term I don't say that, for that reason. Your accent can't be used to justify your use of that term.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

Luckily, you don't get to decide what is and isn't relevant.

How many actors have done "red face" to make a Western, Hmmm? Lots.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I find it quite hard to accept that you're so careful not to hurt people's feeling when ordering a takeaway, but you are capable of being quite rude and cutting on here. It's a fine balance to strike.

I don't speak for the whole Jewish community as you intimate in your last post. But then, you don't speak for the whole of the Chinese community.

I find it really easy not to be rude Livia, I'll be happy to help you out anytime you need any assistance.

Never did I suggest I spoke for the Chinese community.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm from Yorkshire... We say lovey, chippy, drinky and many others. C **** is an offensive term I don't say that, for that reason. Your accent can't be used to justify your use of that term.

sorry i dont see it as offensive and have never heard it expressed in that way to describe a type of food takeaway

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Luckily, you don't get to decide what is and isn't relevant.

How many actors have done "red face" to make a Western, Hmmm? Lots.

Right so we've transcended from children playing, to spaghetti westerns? OK
Start a thread and we'll discuss that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I find it really easy not to be rude Livia, I'll be happy to help you out anytime you need any assistance.

Never did I suggest I spoke for the Chinese community.

And never did I suggest I spoke for the whole Jewish community.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right so we've transcended from children playing, to spaghetti westerns? OK
Start a thread and we'll discuss that.

Don't try to muddy the waters here. We're talking about whether it's racist to dress up as another race. I made the point about Native Americans. We don't need another thread I am perfectly on topic.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

sorry i dont see it as offensive and have never heard it expressed in that way to describe a type of food takeaway

Sorry had to laugh....

'Find the words ‘poofter’ and ‘Chinky’ inoffensive? You’re probably an elderly, male, Northern, Ukip voter.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...kip-voter.html

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't try to muddy the waters here. We're talking about whether it's racist to dress up as another race. I made the point about Native Americans. We don't need another thread I am perfectly on topic.

So your not reaching, even a little to avoid discussing the topic at hand?

Yes I would consider them to be also, that was then and this is now. We are allegedly much more culturally sympathetic ...LOL

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Is that privilidge reserved for one side only then? Feeling frustrated.

What privilege? I've given my opinion which you seem to think I'm not entitled to.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So your not reaching, even a little to avoid discussing the topic at hand?

Yes I would consider them to be also, that was then and this is now. We are allegedly much more culturally sympathetic ...LOL

What we don't need are people taking it upon themselves to dictate how sympathetic everyone else needs to be.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

you are happy to take on Zulu's word for it though, that he was offended, even though he wasn't to begin with as offence for the whole Zulu population

[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What a ridiculous notion of course we are, we have sympathy, empathy, compassion, a conscience and free will to express any or all of those.

The suggestion that we are human echo chambers or only interested in what happens in our own circle of trust is a very insular , modern and in the main media driven concept.

I would go as far as to say if you can't express a full range of human emotions for the plight of suffering strangers, then that in itself is indicative of some defective thought and reasoning process.

Do you consider that only those regard themselves marginalised have a reason to care, and if not they don't?

That's why I said SOME people, those who go to extremes...and I also said that people aren't THAT wired to others sufferings as much as they are to their own, not that they don't care at all.
It's human nature and called the survival instinct. How many would go to the extreme of dying for a stranger? Not many. How many would donate all their money and belongings to a cause and starve? Not many. No, their own well being is more important to them, right?

Also, people who have true empathy don't leave it behind when they get behind a computer screen. True empathy isn't reserved for certain groups, it should extent to all. A lot is revealed when people are anonymous, like unkindness and nastiness.
There is empathy and then there is over - zealousness and combativeness.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

What privilege? I've given my opinion which you seem to think I'm not entitled to.

You are entitled - just don't try to force it on to me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You are entitled - just don't try to force it on to me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

'You are entitlted but only when I say it's okay.'

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

What we don't need are people taking it upon themselves to dictate how sympathetic everyone else needs to be.

I was of course referring to how much more culturally sympathetic we are since the days when hollywood actors would 'red up' .

Try to read the thread in context it really helps.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you are happy to take on Zulu's word for it though, that he was offended, even though he wasn't to begin with as offence for the whole Zulu population

I am happy to take 'the Zulus' or Mr Gumedes word for it yes, even though he initially wasn't of course why wouldn't I?

Of course I haven't ever suggested that Mr Gumede is offended on behalf of all Zulu... What a strange thing to insinuate.