[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

The guy could be right.There are countries which are indeed ****holes.He can think what he likes.

However he’s not just your average bloke.He’s the POTUS and that role requires a thing called DIPLOMACY with a good dose of TACT.
Both arts that this president has certainly NOT mastered.

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

Very true

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daft

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daft

Maybe but for one, at least equally daft to sweeping claim that every country in an entire continent is a sh*thole (at the very least demonstrates that he knows next to nothing about Africa) and secondly... His point isn't just that they are failing states... It's that any person who COMES FROM a failing state will be a "failing person", which is obviously nonsense. Plenty of people from tough backgrounds are intelligent, productive and driven adults and plenty of people from privileged western backgrounds are lazy, thick and pig-ignorant.

Country of origin really says very little about an individual.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe but for one, at least equally daft to sweeping claim that every country in an entire continent is a sh*thole (at the very least demonstrates that he knows next to nothing about Africa) and secondly... His point isn't just that they are failing states... It's that any person who COMES FROM a failing state will be a "failing person", which is obviously nonsense. Plenty of people from tough backgrounds are intelligent, productive and driven adults and plenty of people from privileged western backgrounds are lazy, thick and pig-ignorant.

Country of origin really says very little about an individual.

Hence the reason we should not be discussing bits of a conversation that was leaked with a pure agenda

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daft

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

See this is where it’s gone too far for me.
I’d agree that America has places that are indeed ****holes but not that America as a whole is one.

When you look at the world the US is one of the best places you could live.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

See this is where it’s gone too far for me.
I’d agree that America has places that are indeed ****holes but not that America as a whole is one.

When you look at the world the US is one of the best places you could live.

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

So blindly ethnocentric...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Maru

So blindly ethnocentric...

I can only assume you mean that in a negative way because it’s a word that’s meaning is inherently bad. Nice try!

I am only ethnocentric towards the American political system because Americas political system appears to be blind towards human rights violations. I’m ethnocentric about human rights in many countries around the world, aren’t you? I wouldn’t want to live in SA or other Arabic cultures where life is cheap or African countries that perform FFGM. So to correct your attempt to insult, I’ll make it clear that my ethnocentrism isn’t trivial and certainly isn't blind. Its not about culture or multiculturalism but about the wrongs of their healthcare system, their gun laws; their death sentences in certain states and about the great divide between real wealth and real poverty. And now with Trump, I'm ethnocentric about a president who appears to thrive on racial hatred.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Maru

So blindly ethnocentric...

..to be fair though Maru, it’s Trump himself who has placed the definition on what is an awful country...I mean what he’s essentially saying is that if a country has problems then all of the people of the country ‘are a problem also’ and not people the USA would want or should have...so isn’t that the very definition of being ethnocentric in some kind of stance of superiority.../...so it’s obvious really that similar opinions will come back at him...well take a look at yourself and your own country, Donald../..type thing...I can understand that...hasn’t every country in the world got specific problems and issues, but we don’t define their whole people by that...he has though and so he’s the one that’s then opened his own people and country up for the same scrutiny ...Donald did that...

....anyways, he feels that Norway is ‘acceptable’ so therefore Norwegian people are welcome...maybe they should send him Anders Behring as one of his citizens to spend the rest of his days in a US prison...Anders Behring shot and killed over 70 people and Trump does nothing to restrict his own country’s gun laws so that things like that are less likely to happen and to help lessen deaths of his own people...and It would only be possible for Norway to send Anders anyway because they don’t practice the death penalty, which the US as a westernised country still do in some states, not very progressive.../...so I guess it could be said by Norway and Norwegians...why would we ever think of emigrating to a ****hole like the US...he represents his citizens very badly I’m afraid....

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.
It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.
It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.

These are problems that could and should be tackled if there was any inclination to do so, though. The NHS could function perfectly well if it was well managed... There is no real government drive to do so. It would be funded perfectly well if it wasn't horrendously over-used because of people not understanding their own health or knowing how to properly care for themselves (e.g. running to the GP for every cough and cold, or mismanaging hydration with the flu and ending up in A&E, or calling ambulances / going to hospital for all sorts of minor injuries that could be patched up at home). But there's no real focus on improving that, either.

It is sort of a massive hulking beast that would do better if broken down further into smaller scale local (but cooperative) health services but, the fact remains, if it wasn't for the government quite clearly INTENDING to sell it off by making it seem unmanageable, it could still be a well oiled and exemplary health care system with a few tweaks.

The taxation thing is another issue of course. People don't seem to realise just how much is paid out in insurance based systems. If the government whacked 2% onto everyone's taxes and gave it all to a (well managed) NHS it would do wonders for the service but people would go nuts over it - apparently not realising that private insurance would cost most normal working people a LOT more than a 2% tax increase, and along with it, always the risk of it going wrong and ending up bankrupt or simply unable to pay for certain treatments . These things do happen in the US. And there are far more examples of the poor, elderly and vulnerable falling through the cracks... Especially when it comes to things like mental health.

Its obviously incorrect to call the US a **** hole. It IS a great country with many great things going for it. But it's health care record, for a first world country, is pretty shocking and varies wildly from state to state in direct correlation with wealth. There are some states where infant mortality rates are nearly 1 in 100 which is as bad as some literally starving third world nations.

So yeah... If you're university educated, middle-earning-and-upward then the US can be a great place to live. My wife's uncle and his wife recently moved semi-permanently to Texas (plan to stay for 10 years then play it by ear) and they absolutely love it - but she's a renowned University lecturer with multiple PhD's and a published author and they bought a 5 bedroom house with several acres of land / a swimming pool, etc...

It's not quite the same story for another guy I know, who came over on a University exchange for a year when I was at Uni. Even though he IS a graduate - his life now basically involves plastering on a fake grin as a waiter, because he knows that if he doesn't get tipped well he can't pay his rent and will be on the street. And if he gets ill, he's ****ed.

Its a system that works well for some, at the expense of many others. And no, that's not uncommon in the modern world... It's basically how the entire global economy works... But supposedly the greatest country in the world failing to care for its own native-born citizens on something as basic as fundamental healthcare is a total shambles.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.

Why do you think I fight the neoliberal model. We have been going down the American route for years now (including New Labour's term in office). Its only unstable because its been deliberately made unstable.

It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.

It will of died on its arse long before that.

It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.

Tax doesn’t pay for government expenditure. Obviously, there’s a relationship between the two but its an indirect one. Popular tabloids has convinced the masses that tax comes before spending which means if we don’t pay enough tax we simply can’t spend the money… not true. It’s a misconception that make us wrongly believe the NHS isn’t affordable because there’s not enough tax! Its also a popular myth that government spending must be constrained when in fact all government services can be paid for and maintained without tax and without the risk of inflation so long as the government continues reclaiming tax from the economy.
This means, regardless of a growing population, the government can simply fund the NHS according to its needs so long as it corrects inflation.

Ł1.5 billion has left the NHS and gone into the pockets of just 15 private companies linked to 23 Tory MPs and Lords, who were all able to vote for the Health and Social Care Act: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-nhs-contracts

What this government is doing is betraying the interests of its people.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

what utter nonsense, the USA is the most sought after destination in the world, why id wager 95% of Tibb would jump at a free holiday there and half want to live there

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what utter nonsense, the USA is the most sought after destination in the world, why id wager 95% of Tibb would jump at a free holiday there and half want to live there

A free holiday is something most people would jump at but a free holiday isn't living there is it?

As for wanting to live there, do you have any statistics for this bizarre claim ?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

A free holiday is something most people would jump at but a free holiday isn't living there is it?

As for wanting to live there, do you have any statistics for this bizarre claim ?

are you familiar with the term "why id wager"?

and i doubt many, apart from the foolhardy, would jump at a free holiday to many 3 world African countries - if any